How many are REALLY leaving UA? [2014 edition]
Dec 18, 2014, 4:20 pm
#1531
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: near to SFO and LHR
Programs: BA Gold, B6 Mosiac, VS, AA, DL (and a legacy UA 2MM)
Posts: 2,274
The other thing that's been fascinating about this experience is that it's proven to me that the "war on elites" is a real thing. When I was a GS and spending nearly $60K/year with UA, I was treated with the most vicious hostility and contempt that I've ever experienced anywhere. When I dropped to Silver, they started to treat me with respect and dignity.
Dec 18, 2014, 4:49 pm
#1532
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,645
Out of curiosity - on AA, all in coach or any in F?
I think that, aside from some of the nice plane configs / new options, AA may not be truly different from UA from a Y perspective...but the AA elite experience, as many of us report back, truly does feel better than UA (more like PMUA).
I think that, aside from some of the nice plane configs / new options, AA may not be truly different from UA from a Y perspective...but the AA elite experience, as many of us report back, truly does feel better than UA (more like PMUA).
I understand and sympathize with almost all of the points in your post, and especially about the VX experience being nicer (which I've experienced myself, in coach). But what was the "vicious hostility" that you mentioned toward GS members? Those strong words struck me as at odds with what others have reported at this level.
If you do a search and read through my posts going back through 2012, you'll see lots of specific examples of the hostility I faced as a GS. Out of respect for other forum members who I'm sure don't want to watch me re-hash all that history, I'll refrain from going over it again.
Dec 18, 2014, 6:02 pm
#1533
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Durham, NC (RDU/GSO/CLT)
Programs: AA EXP/MM, DL GM, UA Platinum, HH DIA, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Platinum, Marriott Titanium, Hertz PC
Posts: 33,857
I totally see your point on VX.
However, one should not shortchange the RJ experience on the Delta affiliates flying up and down the west coast:
1. CRJ900 or EMB175's with a first-class section.
2. Silver Medallions often upgraded to first. Plat or Diamond on Delta is an automatic gimme on these routes.
3. Luvo meals in first on LAX-SFO and similar routes; snacks in coach.
4. FA's remarkably nice and hardworking for not being actual Delta employees.
5. Flights depart and arrive on-time (minus the usual ATC problems).
However, one should not shortchange the RJ experience on the Delta affiliates flying up and down the west coast:
1. CRJ900 or EMB175's with a first-class section.
2. Silver Medallions often upgraded to first. Plat or Diamond on Delta is an automatic gimme on these routes.
3. Luvo meals in first on LAX-SFO and similar routes; snacks in coach.
4. FA's remarkably nice and hardworking for not being actual Delta employees.
5. Flights depart and arrive on-time (minus the usual ATC problems).
Dec 18, 2014, 6:35 pm
#1534
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: UA 1K3M, Marriott(SPG) Lifetime Plat
Posts: 230
I'm based out of SFO, so it's not that easy to leave UA. AA will have to really expand those routes to Asia for me in order for me to move over. I don't really want to fly CX through HKG nor JL, or maybe I do? Will be 2MM flyer very soon, so I will have Group 1 boarding regardless. With the changes on upgrading for others coming in February (I normally give the upgrade certificates to family when they fly), since they won't be able to take advantage of my status - and honestly I never felt that ever tipped the scale - not sure whether the upgrades would be of any use anymore. I also know there is no way I can make GS, period. 3MM flyer would be too much for me.
I just don't see another program that would be so amazing that I'd want to move to.
I just don't see another program that would be so amazing that I'd want to move to.
Dec 18, 2014, 10:23 pm
#1535
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Diego
Programs: IHG Spire Amb, HH Diamond, DL Diamond and 1MM
Posts: 3,610
Generally speaking, RJ's are run by sub-par affiliates that offer horrible service. This is definitely true at UA and AA but I didn't know DL's affiliates perform at a higher standard.
However, all that aside, it's generally been my experience that RJ's are more likely to suffer ATC imposed delays due to weather or operational factors and are also less able to deal with weather that larger mainline jets can handle safely and easily.
However, all that aside, it's generally been my experience that RJ's are more likely to suffer ATC imposed delays due to weather or operational factors and are also less able to deal with weather that larger mainline jets can handle safely and easily.
As for ATC delays, all Skywest flights, whether flagged as UA, AA or DL are subject to the same accumulating ATC delays as the day wears on.
As for safety, if you say mainline is better, I ain't going to disagree.
Dec 19, 2014, 8:34 am
#1536
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco
Programs: GM on VX, UA, AA, HA, AS, SY; Budget Fastbreak
Posts: 27,540
How many are REALLY leaving UA? [2014 edition]
Flying nonstop sfo to china is really tough if not united. Ual has an amazing network (ua metal) for china/Europe, ESP nonstop out of sfo. Plus OGG :-). No other airline flies nonstop sfo to Maui and really, when flying to Maui on vacation, does anyone really want a connection?
Dec 19, 2014, 9:28 am
#1537
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bay Area, CA
Programs: UA Plat 2MM; AS MVP Gold 75K
Posts: 35,067
Generally speaking, RJ's are run by sub-par affiliates that offer horrible service. This is definitely true at UA and AA but I didn't know DL's affiliates perform at a higher standard.
However, all that aside, it's generally been my experience that RJ's are more likely to suffer ATC imposed delays due to weather or operational factors and are also less able to deal with weather that larger mainline jets can handle safely and easily. For these reasons, I think prioritizing mainline over RJ still has benefits, and therefore, even UA mainline seems like a better choice than DL RJ since getting to my destination, safely and on-time, is an important priority. You seem to be referring to these issues in your point 5. It seems I place much higher weight on this point than you do. All my RJ experience is UA but I'm assuming weather and operational delays affect all RJ's equally?
However, all that aside, it's generally been my experience that RJ's are more likely to suffer ATC imposed delays due to weather or operational factors and are also less able to deal with weather that larger mainline jets can handle safely and easily. For these reasons, I think prioritizing mainline over RJ still has benefits, and therefore, even UA mainline seems like a better choice than DL RJ since getting to my destination, safely and on-time, is an important priority. You seem to be referring to these issues in your point 5. It seems I place much higher weight on this point than you do. All my RJ experience is UA but I'm assuming weather and operational delays affect all RJ's equally?
Not at all.
First to the points above, the DL RJ service is superior to UA mainline service, in both coach and first. On SFO-SEA, for example, DL has a Luvo snack plate in F (like a cold salad or breakfast wrap thing), while UA has well, the snack basket. That on top of pillows, blankets, tray linens and water bottles. UA has blankets on request, none of the others.
In Y, DL has the free cookie/peanuts, and is going to free drinks in EC. UA, none of those.
As for operational delays, each airline manages their own operations. When flow control happens, the airline is told how much to cut, and each airline has to decide how to manage it. UA often sacrifices its regional operation to try to keep the rest of the operation closer to on time. At SFO, DL isn't going to sacrifice RJs, it's all they got on SFO-LAX and SFO-SEA. They might sacrifice some, delay some, etc., but they do fly.
Also, how they manage delays is very different from UA. On UA, you can trace back an inbound a couple flights back, know you're going to be late, but UA won't post it until you're 30 minutes to an hour out (sometimes even later -- I've had UA not post a delay until after departure time when the plane wasn't even there yet).
DL will often post a delay several hours out if they know that it will trickle down. I've seen a DL RJ out of SFO delayed an hour, and been posted 5-6 hours out. It's nice to know you don't have to rush to the airport. Or if you see the delay, it's nice to be able to rebook instead of waiting until it's too late like you have to with UA since they don't post stuff they know.
Not saying DL is perfect, they creep delays as well, but they're much better at managing their ops and managing delays than UA is.
Combine with the superior technology compared to UA (which always seems to burn me and cost me hours of clean up with UA), It's simply a far less exasperating experience on DL, even on an RJ.
Dec 19, 2014, 9:47 am
#1538
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,645
Not at all.
First to the points above, the DL RJ service is superior to UA mainline service, in both coach and first. On SFO-SEA, for example, DL has a Luvo snack plate in F (like a cold salad or breakfast wrap thing), while UA has well, the snack basket. That on top of pillows, blankets, tray linens and water bottles. UA has blankets on request, none of the others.
In Y, DL has the free cookie/peanuts, and is going to free drinks in EC. UA, none of those.
As for operational delays, each airline manages their own operations. When flow control happens, the airline is told how much to cut, and each airline has to decide how to manage it. UA often sacrifices its regional operation to try to keep the rest of the operation closer to on time. At SFO, DL isn't going to sacrifice RJs, it's all they got on SFO-LAX and SFO-SEA. They might sacrifice some, delay some, etc., but they do fly.
Also, how they manage delays is very different from UA. On UA, you can trace back an inbound a couple flights back, know you're going to be late, but UA won't post it until you're 30 minutes to an hour out (sometimes even later -- I've had UA not post a delay until after departure time when the plane wasn't even there yet).
DL will often post a delay several hours out if they know that it will trickle down. I've seen a DL RJ out of SFO delayed an hour, and been posted 5-6 hours out. It's nice to know you don't have to rush to the airport. Or if you see the delay, it's nice to be able to rebook instead of waiting until it's too late like you have to with UA since they don't post stuff they know.
Not saying DL is perfect, they creep delays as well, but they're much better at managing their ops and managing delays than UA is.
Combine with the superior technology compared to UA (which always seems to burn me and cost me hours of clean up with UA), It's simply a far less exasperating experience on DL, even on an RJ.
First to the points above, the DL RJ service is superior to UA mainline service, in both coach and first. On SFO-SEA, for example, DL has a Luvo snack plate in F (like a cold salad or breakfast wrap thing), while UA has well, the snack basket. That on top of pillows, blankets, tray linens and water bottles. UA has blankets on request, none of the others.
In Y, DL has the free cookie/peanuts, and is going to free drinks in EC. UA, none of those.
As for operational delays, each airline manages their own operations. When flow control happens, the airline is told how much to cut, and each airline has to decide how to manage it. UA often sacrifices its regional operation to try to keep the rest of the operation closer to on time. At SFO, DL isn't going to sacrifice RJs, it's all they got on SFO-LAX and SFO-SEA. They might sacrifice some, delay some, etc., but they do fly.
Also, how they manage delays is very different from UA. On UA, you can trace back an inbound a couple flights back, know you're going to be late, but UA won't post it until you're 30 minutes to an hour out (sometimes even later -- I've had UA not post a delay until after departure time when the plane wasn't even there yet).
DL will often post a delay several hours out if they know that it will trickle down. I've seen a DL RJ out of SFO delayed an hour, and been posted 5-6 hours out. It's nice to know you don't have to rush to the airport. Or if you see the delay, it's nice to be able to rebook instead of waiting until it's too late like you have to with UA since they don't post stuff they know.
Not saying DL is perfect, they creep delays as well, but they're much better at managing their ops and managing delays than UA is.
Combine with the superior technology compared to UA (which always seems to burn me and cost me hours of clean up with UA), It's simply a far less exasperating experience on DL, even on an RJ.
Your point about delay notifications on DL was also very interesting and on-point.
For the SFO-SEA flight where I chose UA because it was mainline, the aircraft was a few hours late arriving into SFO but it showed up in SHARES as being on-time. I traced the incoming flight and looked at the flight on radar tracking. At the time we were meant to depart SFO, the aircraft was shown as being physically over the middle portion of the US. I knew this before I even left for the airport, but I showed up on time, because SHARES said we were on time, and therefore I felt I had no choice. After all, UA could choose to substitute another aircraft, and if I wasn't on time, then I'd be out of luck and if they were overbooked, they could take my seat if I didn't show up at the airport when SHARES told me I had to be at the airport. I got to the airport, went through security, then visited the customer service desk to inquire as to how we were going to leave on time when our aircraft was a few hours away from SFO. I had to wait in line for more than 20 minutes, while the agents engaged in a personal conversation and ignored me. There was nobody in front of me. When they finally agreed to speak with me, the agent just shrugged his shoulders and told me "there's nothing I can do" because SHARES said the flight is on time even though he could see himself on the radar tracking that it wasn't anywhere near SFO. So, I set up my laptop, and just sat around working and waiting. The aircraft itself was a "dark" PMCO 737 coming from EWR - no power, no entertainment, no WIFI, no nothing. I didn't much care for a ~2 hour flight but as I was sitting on that aircraft, I was thinking about how miserable the experience must have been for a TRANSCON flight.
In retrospect, and certainly in comparison with the data points you provided on DL, this was an awful experience and it supports the notion that I might have done better to choose DL.
I'm reflecting now on how interesting it is that I characterized my year with UA as "meeting or exceeding" expectations because even the mess described above is so much better than what I've experienced with them in 2012 and 2013, that it actually seemed like good service. Great example of "frog boiling" I suppose. They've pushed the bar so low that even an experience such as above now far exceeds it.
All that aside, I still don't know that I'd want to sit in a cramped RJ for > 2 hours. I'm one of those people who appreciates the space and feeling of a large aircraft.
Dec 19, 2014, 10:20 am
#1539
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Northern Calif./Eastern Ida.
Programs: Amethyst Premier Plutonium Medallion
Posts: 20,627
my last RJ flight on DL was STL-SLC, in the air it was about 2 1/2 hours. it was a very pleasant experience. the flight boarded in an orderly fashion and left on time. i was upgraded at the gate and breakfast was served. it was the exact same as UA's cereal tray offered in mainline, except the portion size was larger and the fruit was fresher. the only thing missing was the cinnnamon roll 
one thing i do honestly like on UA. the service in F was outstanding, in typical DL fashion there was pillow and blanket on each seat, and bottled water. after breakfast i used the wi-fi to stream a brand new release movie, which was also free, since i was seated in F.
one thing i do honestly like on UA. the service in F was outstanding, in typical DL fashion there was pillow and blanket on each seat, and bottled water. after breakfast i used the wi-fi to stream a brand new release movie, which was also free, since i was seated in F.
Dec 19, 2014, 11:52 am
#1540
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
The other thing that's been fascinating about this experience is that it's proven to me that the "war on elites" is a real thing. When I was a GS and spending nearly $60K/year with UA, I was treated with the most vicious hostility and contempt that I've ever experienced anywhere. When I dropped to Silver, they started to treat me with respect and dignity. I've reported several experiences this year that were actually positive and met expectations.
[A match I met in a month].So I will end up with 35,000 miles and $4800 in spending on UAL this year, and will drop to my lifetime gold status
Given my spending as a GS was at around 40 c/mi, they lost my good business, kept a few cheap fares. On VX, I can't easily calculate my c/mi, but my spending on them has been around $29,000 and I've also given business to Delta (about $12K in spending), and Alaska (about $4000) and taken two trips to Asia in paid Business Class, once on CX and once on JAL. So about my usual spending, just less to UAL.I've been very very pleased with VX, they are just a better airline. MCS is great, if not I get an exit row, and on longer flights (to DC/NY/FL) I just buy First Class. My only "....." with them is that they don't have their system set up to decline an upgrade if its to a MCS middle seat. Luckily their seats are 18" wide, so its not bad, and I almost always get an isle. Delta, I buy A/P fares, and they get all of my connecting business, credited to my AS account. CX and JAL? Both Much better than our friends at UA.
Next year UAL will probably get even less from me.
As to GS, I would probably say that after 3/2/12 they were not as responsive as before. I was expressly told several times that their hands were tied, they had their ability to fix problems taken away. They were also clearly understaffed. That and very poor IRROPs handling drove me to other airlines, and their better service led me to fly them more. Then when I lost GS (not surprising since my flying on UAL dropped dramatically in 2013
) what I got as a soft landed 1K was not enough to keep my flying UA. It may be better now, but I am gone, and will not give UA my premium business until there are very major changes at UA and its worthwhile to fly them again.
Dec 19, 2014, 1:09 pm
#1541
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Houston
Programs: AA EXP; Hyatt Globalist; Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, UA 1.56MM (fmr UA1K)
Posts: 5,770
Likely very true. Nowadays you have to take it while you can. When things change in the future, one must adapt. Cross that bridge when you reach it. Shrugging one's shoulder and sighing that they'll be like this soon is not the right choice for everyone.
Dec 19, 2014, 4:04 pm
#1542
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Daly City, CA
Programs: UA 1K, SPG Plat, Turkish Gold, Marriott Gold, HH Gold
Posts: 186
might still stay for an year and see how it goes. Live really close to SFO and flies to BOS often..didn't really want to switch to jetblue or virgin america since less international redemptions are available for these 2 programs..
Dec 19, 2014, 4:22 pm
#1543
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: DEN
Posts: 514
Lifetime UA Gold, but most common routes are DEN-TUL and DEN-MSY, both of which absolutely suck on UA. DEN RJ terminal is a human rights abuse, and for some reason UA does not think a MSY-DEN flight after 5PM would be of value to business flyers. Occasional DEN-IAD, but guess what, no more widebody flights.
So, its WN for most of my flights from now on. Not that I like WN so much, but UA just does not care about the routes I most often fly.
So, its WN for most of my flights from now on. Not that I like WN so much, but UA just does not care about the routes I most often fly.
Dec 19, 2014, 5:43 pm
#1544
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Independent! But mostly BKK, BCN, SFO, PDX, SEA...
Programs: Lawl COVID
Posts: 1,060
For the SFO-SEA flight where I chose UA because it was mainline, the aircraft was a few hours late arriving into SFO but it showed up in SHARES as being on-time. I traced the incoming flight and looked at the flight on radar tracking. At the time we were meant to depart SFO, the aircraft was shown as being physically over the middle portion of the US. I knew this before I even left for the airport, but I showed up on time, because SHARES said we were on time, and therefore I felt I had no choice. After all, UA could choose to substitute another aircraft, and if I wasn't on time, then I'd be out of luck and if they were overbooked, they could take my seat if I didn't show up at the airport when SHARES told me I had to be at the airport. I got to the airport, went through security, then visited the customer service desk to inquire as to how we were going to leave on time when our aircraft was a few hours away from SFO. I had to wait in line for more than 20 minutes, while the agents engaged in a personal conversation and ignored me. There was nobody in front of me. When they finally agreed to speak with me, the agent just shrugged his shoulders and told me "there's nothing I can do" because SHARES said the flight is on time even though he could see himself on the radar tracking that it wasn't anywhere near SFO. So, I set up my laptop, and just sat around working and waiting. The aircraft itself was a "dark" PMCO 737 coming from EWR - no power, no entertainment, no WIFI, no nothing. I didn't much care for a ~2 hour flight but as I was sitting on that aircraft, I was thinking about how miserable the experience must have been for a TRANSCON flight.
Definitely with you on no RJs. It took two sectors on the (now cancelled) IAD-JFK sector to wean me off that idea real quick!
Dec 19, 2014, 5:45 pm
#1545
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: London; Bangkok; Las Vegas
Programs: AA Exec Plat; UA MM Gold; Marriott Lifetime Titanium; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,745
The bottom line is that it is purely unsupported speculation with no basis in fact.
Even if you are right, I'll take AA over UA since AA hasn't demonstrated unabashed disdain for me as UA has.
United is an airline for those living in captive hubs, locked into corporate contracts, or who just don't know any better.
