saathich

May be posted elsewhere...but thought this was interesting even for United folks.

http://business.time.com/2014/01/09/...-seats-bigger/

Seems to me that eventually United will need to respond to Delta re-investment or be consigned to second tier status relying on crazy pricing at fortress hubs. Especially interesting was the study that the relatively small change in width has outsized impact on ability to sleep. Not surprising given same impact of increased pitch but never really thought about coach width before.

eng3

UA probably believes that the "improved" slimline seats are equal to the improved Delta seats

bse118

These new DL seats are also slimlines - so until people actually sit in them I wouldn't be so sure that they will be any more comfortable than UA's slimline seats.

* written with no knowledge of what vendor/model DL has picked for these seats.

EWR764

A $770m capex program is not exactly comparable to a plan to trim $2b in operating costs.

United has elected to devote the lion's share of capital to the acquisition of new aircraft, whereas Delta is spending less to acquire aircraft and allocating more capital to improvements to the customer experience, where they are out-spending United about 3:1... and it shows. When it's all said and done, United's domestic hard product experience will be closer to Southwest (or Spirit...) than American or Delta.

In the end, it really comes down to Delta's investment in IFE vs. United's abandonment of the in-seat concept for the domestic fleet. United will have more new airplanes, but comparable Delta aircraft will be outfitted with IFE at each seat. In terms of passenger perception, Delta wins.

In reality, the slimline seat Delta installs will likely be the same B/E Aerospace model that is forthcoming for the United 737 fleet. I believe AA has the same Recaro models on incoming A319/321s as UA is installing on its Airbus fleet.

sbm12

Delta chose the B/E Aerospace Pinnacle seats, same as what UA is installing on the 737s. DL has Zodiac slimline seats on some planes as well. UA has Recaro on some, as does AA.

There really isn't much to differentiate the carriers at this point vis a vis seats; they're all moving in the same direction on this front.

It is worth noting that DL is removing F seats from the 75s, down to only 20 F in the cabin now.

Halo117

+1

Now before folks start saying BYOE, DL is also adding powerports and wifi along with AVOD. This is the trifecta that UA should have gone for and now we have multiple aircraft with either one or none of the services that DL offers.

New aircraft are great, but when you go for the base model features it really negates any coolness that comes with a new plane smell. I am sure UA would order seats as metal frames only if the manufacturers didn't include padding as standard

spin88

Seth, I don't know why (unless you are trying to flack for UAL) you would note that they are removing F seats on the 757s they are keeping, AND NOT NOTE HOW THEY ARE ADDING A ROW TO FIRST ON THE A320/A319 fleets. So the DAL A319s will have 12F and the A320s will have 16F. Why not mention that? Why not also mention that Delta is adding new FC seats on their narrow body fleet.

I also don't think that most fliers would agree (and the reports on this board don't agree) that the B/E Pinnacles are = the Ricardo Slimlines. I think most folks who have tried both would say the B/E Pinnacle is vastly superior.

Bottom line is that DAL is adding nose to tail POWER and IFE (other than the A320s which are are only getting power) which is what AA is doing, while UAL is pulling out IFE and not adding power.

Having just flown on a dark A319 and a A320 this week, and having heard six (6) First Class passengers complain to the FAs about the lack of power and IFE and how cheap it was, I think the CO management has put UAL in a bad competitive spot.

sbm12

Because I misread the chart yesterday doing the math. Nothing untoward, I assure you. The A319s currently have 12 and will continue to have 12. The A320s currently have 12 and will have 16 in the retrofit.

ETA: Also, if DL is adding a row of Y and a row of F that suggests even tighter space otherwise for the passengers. Net result overall: Less average personal space on board. That's with DL and UA and AA and many international carriers, too. They're all going down the same path.

I'm in that group. I never said the seats were the same. I pointed out that DL has some good and some bad slimline, just like UA will. AA is probably trailing the pack here with Recaro seats. But all carriers are moving towards slimline options. That is very much a fact.

On the IFE front I'm not yet convinced that either side is right on the move. Clearly UA has made a decision which differs from DL and AA. We'll see if that affects bookings in any way. Several years ago UA also made a decision to not have wifi while AA and DL spent a chunk of cash to fit their fleets. UA is now fitting its fleet with a newer system while AA and DL will be stuck with the older one for some time to come. It will take some time to figure out which one was correct.

rob_flies_ua

As far as I can tell, no rows of F are being added to the A319s and the row being added to the A320s is actually the return of a row that was removed just under 2 years ago when they installed Economy Comfort. I would love it if UA's A319s had 12F and 320s had 16F though - would make upgrades easier. The only thing I flack for is correct facts - so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

g46r

UA Is betting on higher oil prices. Also the collateralized financing cost on new aircrafts is lower than other types of capital spending.

Is that the right business strategy? Only time will tell.

Madone59

Doesn't Southwest give out a snack with it's 'complementary beverages'?

wpr8e

Doesn't Delta also have a much smaller Econ Comfort section compared to UA?

United will also be adding power to All Airbus' in First and E+.

A few more facts to add to the conversation.

Agreed the jury's still out on streaming wifi versus in seat IFE. I rarely use wifi. There's no question the future is streaming wifi as the weigh savings must be enormous.

spin88

No you are correct, DAL pulled a row of F from the A320s, now it goes back... so DAL's entire airbus fleet will have 4 more FC per A/C than does UALs. I bet if we looked across the fleet at this point we would see that domestically DAL's FC seat % is HIGHER than is UALs at this point, including DAL having few no 50 seaters left at this point.

My point (as was the OPs) is that while Jeff is making "changes you will like" (and reducing the amenities) DAL - and AA - are going in the opposite direction. UAL is following Sprint, and AA/DAL are following a different model.

Sulley

If you want to get technical about seats, DL is also removing seats from their front cabins on their international fleet...

EWR764

True... but that would be considered part of the soft product. I am talking about slimline Y seats with reduced pitch (in terms of actual numbers, not perceived space), wireless streaming IFE and paid wifi.