UA mistake award redemption rates for China travel [UA says will void tickets]
Jul 16, 2012, 5:25 pm
#616
Join Date: Sep 2005
Programs: AA EXP, AAirpass, & CK 2MM, MR Plat Premier, DL Plat, US Plat, UA RECOVERING GS
Posts: 2,620
Seriously? I'm fairly sure UA has all the data with respect to how many tickets were booked and the overall composition of the flights. There is zero data in that survey that would be of even remote value to UA.
Jul 16, 2012, 5:26 pm
#617
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SFO
Programs: AA Plat, IHG Plat, HH Diamond, Hyatt Plat, Hertz Gold
Posts: 1,933
They can get actual numbers from their own system instead of relying on a survey in which probably only a very small fraction will respond. They aren't going to use this at all.
Jul 16, 2012, 5:29 pm
#618
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 889
survey
Survey done.
Some clarification though: tickets vs flights? I responded by segments, some are mixed though ...
Also, I booked several segments to get to / from HKG, most likely won't ever use them, as I want to get from A to B, but had to add a segment from B to HKG to get the 'premium discount fare'.
Some clarification though: tickets vs flights? I responded by segments, some are mixed though ...
Also, I booked several segments to get to / from HKG, most likely won't ever use them, as I want to get from A to B, but had to add a segment from B to HKG to get the 'premium discount fare'.
Jul 16, 2012, 5:31 pm
#620
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,393
I'm thinking the DoT wouldn't have authority over it, as their mandate is solely to regulate 'Transportation', however on US soil the only activity is retail of transportation in a foreign country
Jul 16, 2012, 5:33 pm
#621
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 17,421
This is how I'd calculate the cost to United:
Average Revenue Tickets x Full Revenue Price. The real $$ loss would be the number of revenue seats that would have been filled that now have us free loaders in them. Then add whatever cost there would be to pay partner airlines for their seats.
Beyond that, you could argue that a small percentage of people getting these 4 mile flights would have paid full price in miles to fly the same itinerary as they'd already been planning it. These people would not only get their virtually free 1st class flight, or whatever class was booked, but would still have 150,000 miles more in their accounts to pay for other award tickets. This category would seem to have a negligible real cost, I would think, relative to the first category.
Average Revenue Tickets x Full Revenue Price. The real $$ loss would be the number of revenue seats that would have been filled that now have us free loaders in them. Then add whatever cost there would be to pay partner airlines for their seats.
Beyond that, you could argue that a small percentage of people getting these 4 mile flights would have paid full price in miles to fly the same itinerary as they'd already been planning it. These people would not only get their virtually free 1st class flight, or whatever class was booked, but would still have 150,000 miles more in their accounts to pay for other award tickets. This category would seem to have a negligible real cost, I would think, relative to the first category.
Which, of course, is the problem here. I suspect UA would PREFER to honor these reservations instead of endure another episode of bad publicity. But $10 million is a lot of moola, even for the world's largest airline.
Jul 16, 2012, 5:36 pm
#623
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SIN
Programs: UA Platinum, DL Platinum, AFKL Gold, Qatar Gold
Posts: 895
Thanks 
Last edited by thyeri; Jul 16, 2012 at 6:18 pm
Jul 16, 2012, 5:37 pm
#624
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: SFO/SJC
Programs: AMEX PLT, AA PPro, Spire AMB
Posts: 1,617
I dunno, you could speculate any way your want, but I still think $5000 x 2000 tickets ($10 million) is probably a good ballpark "real" cost. And that was a lost revenue assumption.
Which, of course, is the problem here. I suspect UA would PREFER to honor these reservations instead of endure another episode of bad publicity. But $10 million is a lot of moola, even for the world's largest airline.
Which, of course, is the problem here. I suspect UA would PREFER to honor these reservations instead of endure another episode of bad publicity. But $10 million is a lot of moola, even for the world's largest airline.
14,400 C tickets selling for 1,440. You could claim a loss there as well and that deal was alive for 50x longer...3 days? I forget.
Jul 16, 2012, 5:39 pm
#625
Join Date: Apr 2007
Programs: Marriott Plat
Posts: 113
Did the survey. I know three 3 I boked were in F for a total of about $38,000. While I may be way off I'd guess about several hundred people got in for about the same. Some got 5 so math points to this being a million dollar deal.
MY HNK are
This reservation was ticketed and confirmed on Sun., Jul. 15, 2012 at 1:47p.m. Central Time.
Think I got in towards the very end. No miles deducted yet. Have hotel booked and ready togo, fingers crossed.
Jul 16, 2012, 5:40 pm
#626
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SFO, SJC
Programs: UA Gold, Hilton HHonors Gold, Marriott Gold, SPG Gold
Posts: 197
It's a mess. At least, it takes some time for UA to sort this all out.
Jul 16, 2012, 5:40 pm
#627
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Raleigh, NC, US
Posts: 74
A contract of carriage provision that reserves the right to cancel such ticketed purchases or reserves the right to raise the fare cannot legalize the practice described above. The Enforcement Office would consider any contract of carriage provision that attempts to relieve a carrier of the prohibition against post-purchase price increase to be an unfair and deceptive practice in violation of 49 U.S.C. § 41712.
Any lawyers here (not looking for idle speculation) know what fine UA might have to pay if the DOT rules that these bookings fall under their purview and UA still chooses not to honor them?
Any lawyers here (not looking for idle speculation) know what fine UA might have to pay if the DOT rules that these bookings fall under their purview and UA still chooses not to honor them?
The stated maximum is $25K per violation or 3X revenue involved, whichever is higher, but obviously they can settle for less. I really have no idea what a standard compromise would be here. There are consent orders for violations floating around but I haven't taken the time to read all of them. Of the few I skimmed, the DOT was not buying any "we didn't mean to" or "it was an honest mistake" type defenses, although they were all compromises so mercy may have been reflected in the penalty.
Jul 16, 2012, 5:43 pm
#628
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Posts: 13,017
Jul 16, 2012, 5:46 pm
#629
Join Date: Feb 2011
Programs: Delta Gold Medallion
Posts: 449
I find question 2 of the survey confusing so haven't completed it yet.
Jul 16, 2012, 6:06 pm
#630
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Programs: Hilton G/SPG G/IHG RA/Accor P/Aeroplan Elite/CZ S
Posts: 73
2000 even 10000 is a too conservative estimation because this was just a rough number you can get in English world(Say,like FT). Other non-english speakers could hardly see and do your survey. This loophole was discovered and posted on a non-english forum at least 4 hours before first posted in FT. Use your imagimation...