UA mistake award redemption rates for China travel [UA says will void tickets]
Jul 16, 2012, 4:26 pm
#586
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Close to the beach
Programs: AA EP, UA 1K, DL GM, Tumlare Bussresor Super Class
Posts: 6,974
I agree. And here's the full text of the rule:
It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
And the DOT answer to a specific question about mistakes:
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. [B]A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
A contract of carriage provision that reserves the right to cancel such ticketed purchases or reserves the right to raise the fare cannot legalize the practice described above. The Enforcement Office would consider any contract of carriage provision that attempts to relieve a carrier of the prohibition against post-purchase price increase to be an unfair and deceptive practice in violation of 49 U.S.C. § 41712.
To argue that this is definitively against us with regard to miles purchases is, in my opinion, asinine. If anything, it is strongly titled in favor of the consumer, and suggests that their intention is to resolve ambiguities in favor of the consumer. It is clear DOT does not care how bad the mistake is on revenue flights. A flight for one cent would be a slam dunk based on the above. So why are they somehow going to rule that an award flight is not a "purchase"? How'd we get it? Why'd they issue a confirmation number? Just out of the kindness of their heart? No, it's because we paid the "agreed upon price" which in this case was MILES because the fare cost listed in my breakdown was ZERO and I paid the taxes and fees, thus I have 100% paid the "agreed upon price".
It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
And the DOT answer to a specific question about mistakes:
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. [B]A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
A contract of carriage provision that reserves the right to cancel such ticketed purchases or reserves the right to raise the fare cannot legalize the practice described above. The Enforcement Office would consider any contract of carriage provision that attempts to relieve a carrier of the prohibition against post-purchase price increase to be an unfair and deceptive practice in violation of 49 U.S.C. § 41712.
To argue that this is definitively against us with regard to miles purchases is, in my opinion, asinine. If anything, it is strongly titled in favor of the consumer, and suggests that their intention is to resolve ambiguities in favor of the consumer. It is clear DOT does not care how bad the mistake is on revenue flights. A flight for one cent would be a slam dunk based on the above. So why are they somehow going to rule that an award flight is not a "purchase"? How'd we get it? Why'd they issue a confirmation number? Just out of the kindness of their heart? No, it's because we paid the "agreed upon price" which in this case was MILES because the fare cost listed in my breakdown was ZERO and I paid the taxes and fees, thus I have 100% paid the "agreed upon price".
No matter what the receipt says, the system will try to deduct the "normal" mileage (successful in the case where the passenger had enough miles in the account).
According to previous posts here, the booking page showed the correct mile "price" at the top, but the wrong amount further down, which could be enough for UA to argue that customers should have realized that the 4 mile fare is a computer screw-up and not consistent with the published award charts.
Jul 16, 2012, 4:29 pm
#587
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: DFW
Programs: UA Pleb, HH Gold, PWP General Secretary
Posts: 23,199
At the point the system accepts your offer a contract has been formed whether or not both parties have fully performed.
Jul 16, 2012, 4:33 pm
#588
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Raleigh, NC, US
Posts: 74
Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
I see your point, but it's up to them to collect the agreed upon amount before issuing the ticket. And, when two prices are listed, and one is paid, and they issue the ticket, it's really hard for them to say it was not the "agreed upon price". I mean, clearly it is a mistake, but they could have it plastered all over their site "We never sell a flight to Timbuktu for less than $1000" but if you get to a screen that says your your flight is 1 cent and buy it and get your ticket, the airline can't say "but the customer knew that flight was supposed to be at least $1000". That's the whole point of the rule to me.
When we got to the end it said straight up it was going to cost me 8 miles and $137 to continue, notwithstanding another amount on the screen above it. The price to book was listed as 8 miles, and I relied on that and clicked it.
Have the miles been deducted from your account? If not, UA could claim that you haven't paid "the full amount".
No matter what the receipt says, the system will try to deduct the "normal" mileage (successful in the case where the passenger had enough miles in the account).
According to previous posts here, the booking page showed the correct mile "price" at the top, but the wrong amount further down, which could be enough for UA to argue that customers should have realized that the 4 mile fare is a computer screw-up and not consistent with the published award charts.
No matter what the receipt says, the system will try to deduct the "normal" mileage (successful in the case where the passenger had enough miles in the account).
According to previous posts here, the booking page showed the correct mile "price" at the top, but the wrong amount further down, which could be enough for UA to argue that customers should have realized that the 4 mile fare is a computer screw-up and not consistent with the published award charts.
Right, but I have a receipt that says I paid 8 miles. That's what a receipt is. They're the ones with access to the accounts, it's impossible for me to pull out 8 miles and hand it to them, so they can't not take it out and say I didn't pay after giving me a receipt. That would be the legal equivalent of me leaving $500 on the counter at a store, them giving me a $500 receipt, then saying I didn't pay because they never put it in the register. DOT should not let them benefit from their own nonfeasance with regard to pulling the miles.
ETA: I do see the point, and that's why I think they have not taken them out of anyone's account. These technical arguments are all they have, and they're not going to mess any of them up.
Last edited by iluv2fly; Jul 16, 2012 at 4:52 pm Reason: merge
Jul 16, 2012, 4:35 pm
#589
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: DFW
Programs: AS, BA, AA
Posts: 3,670
I would think the last thing you want right now is to accrue a bunch of miles...This is why I <3 the UA forum.
That thought crossed my mind, because AA had a similar solution for a First-Class error fare last year. But I thought the consensus was we are not supposed to give UA ideas for how to settle this.
Jul 16, 2012, 4:35 pm
#590
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: DEN
Programs: UA Gold-MM, AA Gold-MM, F9-Silver, Hyatt Something, Marriott Gold, IHG Plat, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 6,392
Let's see, the last major screw-up for UA was SYD/LAX-SYD, which at the time were allegedly the BIGGEST money routes in their whole network. (That was when it was an oligopoly with QF.)
Do I see a pattern here?
Isn't that because there are different status requirements to get an upgrade for transpacific flights? I thought they did not want people with high status just knowing they can buy a $2000 coach seat and likely get upgraded while someone else pays $6000 or more for business/first. Please correct me if I am wrong, my status is low, so I do not know this stuff.
Last edited by iluv2fly; Jul 16, 2012 at 4:51 pm Reason: merge
Jul 16, 2012, 4:44 pm
#591
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NYC
Programs: UA Gold, Delta Gold, AA Plat
Posts: 1,269
according to milepoint, a memo was send to united reservations agents:
"A memo went out moments ago from Reservations to all Reservations and MileagePlus agents. The memo states that a pricing error occurred yesterday on itineraries involving travel to China, that the pricing error has now been corrected, the company is still working to resolve the matter of tickets already issued...and the company will be contacting us shortly."
"A memo went out moments ago from Reservations to all Reservations and MileagePlus agents. The memo states that a pricing error occurred yesterday on itineraries involving travel to China, that the pricing error has now been corrected, the company is still working to resolve the matter of tickets already issued...and the company will be contacting us shortly."
Jul 16, 2012, 4:46 pm
#592
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 1,812
A contract of carriage provision that reserves the right to cancel such ticketed purchases or reserves the right to raise the fare cannot legalize the practice described above. The Enforcement Office would consider any contract of carriage provision that attempts to relieve a carrier of the prohibition against post-purchase price increase to be an unfair and deceptive practice in violation of 49 U.S.C. § 41712.
Any lawyers here (not looking for idle speculation) know what fine UA might have to pay if the DOT rules that these bookings fall under their purview and UA still chooses not to honor them?
Any lawyers here (not looking for idle speculation) know what fine UA might have to pay if the DOT rules that these bookings fall under their purview and UA still chooses not to honor them?
Jul 16, 2012, 4:49 pm
#593
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: DFW
Programs: UA Pleb, HH Gold, PWP General Secretary
Posts: 23,199
A contract of carriage provision that reserves the right to cancel such ticketed purchases or reserves the right to raise the fare cannot legalize the practice described above. The Enforcement Office would consider any contract of carriage provision that attempts to relieve a carrier of the prohibition against post-purchase price increase to be an unfair and deceptive practice in violation of 49 U.S.C. § 41712.
Any lawyers here (not looking for idle speculation) know what fine UA might have to pay if the DOT rules that these bookings fall under their purview and UA still chooses not to honor them?
Any lawyers here (not looking for idle speculation) know what fine UA might have to pay if the DOT rules that these bookings fall under their purview and UA still chooses not to honor them?
Jul 16, 2012, 4:50 pm
#595
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bay Area, CA
Programs: UA Plat 2MM; AS MVP Gold 75K
Posts: 35,067
Jul 16, 2012, 4:52 pm
#596
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: DFW
Programs: UA Pleb, HH Gold, PWP General Secretary
Posts: 23,199
Jul 16, 2012, 4:53 pm
#597
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 1,812
I wonder if there'd be some give-and-take with the DOT here given that (1) there is some argument that can be made the mileage purchases should have some flexibility over $$ tickets; and (2) no person with an average IQ could competently argue in court that they didn't think that was a mistake since there wasn't an advertised promotion anywhere that can be pointed to listing the same amount and that the value was essentially zero.
Last edited by JC1120; Jul 16, 2012 at 4:58 pm
Jul 16, 2012, 4:54 pm
#598
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Park, CO
Programs: Tegridy Elite
Posts: 5,678
Have the miles been deducted from your account? If not, UA could claim that you haven't paid "the full amount".
No matter what the receipt says, the system will try to deduct the "normal" mileage (successful in the case where the passenger had enough miles in the account).
According to previous posts here, the booking page showed the correct mile "price" at the top, but the wrong amount further down, which could be enough for UA to argue that customers should have realized that the 4 mile fare is a computer screw-up and not consistent with the published award charts.
No matter what the receipt says, the system will try to deduct the "normal" mileage (successful in the case where the passenger had enough miles in the account).
According to previous posts here, the booking page showed the correct mile "price" at the top, but the wrong amount further down, which could be enough for UA to argue that customers should have realized that the 4 mile fare is a computer screw-up and not consistent with the published award charts.
This wouldn't be the first time, with UA or other airlines, that someone did not have miles deducted when they were issued an award ticket.
UA sent me the e-ticket and invoice showing payment of the required taxes/fees and 4 miles/ticket. That UA failed to reflect the deduction in my mileage balance is their problem and something they are more than welcome to rectify at any time - I won't miss the 12 miles total out of my <1K balance!
Jul 16, 2012, 4:55 pm
#600
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 721
On United.com I can book award to Hkg but no awards on any flights from Hkg.