United Paid Business / First - Involuntary Downgrades
Jun 1, 2012, 9:39 am
#61
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: What I write is my opinion alone..don't read into it anything not written.
Posts: 9,685
If it was an offer ("When I got to the airport, was offered three adjacent coach seats and a $1200 voucher") a modification to the contract that could be accepted or denied by the OP.A fare adjustment would have been appropriate plu some sort of compenstaion, but an offer to modifiy the terms of his ticket to volunteer to do so, and accepted by the passenger should (not would) not (not saying it doesn't, as I don't believe the CoC spells out such an option) trigger such a thing.
If the value proposition is acceptable to both parties to modify the contract for a new contract, then that SHOULD be the end of it.
In the original post, it said he was offered, yet later on, in subsequent posts, he is upset. An offer to downgrade to me is the same as a voluntter. The army recruits, gives offers, and people accept. That isn't constcription or a draft, ratherwe call these people volunteersand celebrate them when they come home for volunteering to do something that we respect. So the body of the initial post, differs from the title as well as the ill will fell in subsequent posts. erhaps the OP was just being kind in using the word "option" and he felt coerced, in that case, the rest of this post is worthless (by me.)
So the question is (and again theCoC and UA policies don't agree with me on this, but it is my question anyway) "Did they offer/request and you acceted, or did they demand/force and you complied?" A VDB is not given the same compensation as an IDB and a volunteer to downgrade is not the same as an involuntary downgrade.
And OD...perhaps "oversale/downgrade" Just a guess, the tol we use is called "oversale manager" but perhaps they call it the OD manager there.
If the value proposition is acceptable to both parties to modify the contract for a new contract, then that SHOULD be the end of it.
In the original post, it said he was offered, yet later on, in subsequent posts, he is upset. An offer to downgrade to me is the same as a voluntter. The army recruits, gives offers, and people accept. That isn't constcription or a draft, ratherwe call these people volunteersand celebrate them when they come home for volunteering to do something that we respect. So the body of the initial post, differs from the title as well as the ill will fell in subsequent posts. erhaps the OP was just being kind in using the word "option" and he felt coerced, in that case, the rest of this post is worthless (by me.)
So the question is (and again theCoC and UA policies don't agree with me on this, but it is my question anyway) "Did they offer/request and you acceted, or did they demand/force and you complied?" A VDB is not given the same compensation as an IDB and a volunteer to downgrade is not the same as an involuntary downgrade.
And OD...perhaps "oversale/downgrade" Just a guess, the tol we use is called "oversale manager" but perhaps they call it the OD manager there.
Last edited by fastair; Jun 1, 2012 at 10:13 am
Jun 1, 2012, 9:45 am
#62
Join Date: May 2007
Location: WAS
Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, WN A+, Hyatt Glob, Marriott Tit, Hertz PC
Posts: 1,123
When I worked at AA, they would in fact overbook business, but only if there were seats open in first for op-ups. I would sometimes see 42/37 for business class, but room in first if necessary or multiple flights leaving around the same time.
Jun 1, 2012, 2:23 pm
#63
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: PIE, HPN, SBH
Programs: UA GS, DL Di, AA Plat, Hyatt Glb
Posts: 80
If it was an offer ("When I got to the airport, was offered three adjacent coach seats and a $1200 voucher") a modification to the contract that could be accepted or denied by the OP.A fare adjustment would have been appropriate plu some sort of compenstaion, but an offer to modifiy the terms of his ticket to volunteer to do so, and accepted by the passenger should (not would) not (not saying it doesn't, as I don't believe the CoC spells out such an option) trigger such a thing.
If the value proposition is acceptable to both parties to modify the contract for a new contract, then that SHOULD be the end of it.
In the original post, it said he was offered, yet later on, in subsequent posts, he is upset. An offer to downgrade to me is the same as a voluntter. The army recruits, gives offers, and people accept. That isn't constcription or a draft, ratherwe call these people volunteersand celebrate them when they come home for volunteering to do something that we respect. So the body of the initial post, differs from the title as well as the ill will fell in subsequent posts. erhaps the OP was just being kind in using the word "option" and he felt coerced, in that case, the rest of this post is worthless (by me.)
So the question is (and again theCoC and UA policies don't agree with me on this, but it is my question anyway) "Did they offer/request and you acceted, or did they demand/force and you complied?" A VDB is not given the same compensation as an IDB and a volunteer to downgrade is not the same as an involuntary downgrade.
And OD...perhaps "oversale/downgrade" Just a guess, the tol we use is called "oversale manager" but perhaps they call it the OD manager there.
If the value proposition is acceptable to both parties to modify the contract for a new contract, then that SHOULD be the end of it.
In the original post, it said he was offered, yet later on, in subsequent posts, he is upset. An offer to downgrade to me is the same as a voluntter. The army recruits, gives offers, and people accept. That isn't constcription or a draft, ratherwe call these people volunteersand celebrate them when they come home for volunteering to do something that we respect. So the body of the initial post, differs from the title as well as the ill will fell in subsequent posts. erhaps the OP was just being kind in using the word "option" and he felt coerced, in that case, the rest of this post is worthless (by me.)
So the question is (and again theCoC and UA policies don't agree with me on this, but it is my question anyway) "Did they offer/request and you acceted, or did they demand/force and you complied?" A VDB is not given the same compensation as an IDB and a volunteer to downgrade is not the same as an involuntary downgrade.
And OD...perhaps "oversale/downgrade" Just a guess, the tol we use is called "oversale manager" but perhaps they call it the OD manager there.
Jun 1, 2012, 2:30 pm
#64
Moderator: Luxury Hotels and FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Jun 1, 2012, 3:09 pm
#65
Formerly known as I_Hate_US_Airways
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Just South Of North
Programs: My Loyalty Programs? I now VOTE with my wallet!!!
Posts: 2,568
Pretty Simple...
First time an airline did that to me, I would NEVER fly* them again, period.
*I started flying with wallet, instead of my heart since March 3rd of this year. Very much happier flying US, AC, LH.
*I started flying with wallet, instead of my heart since March 3rd of this year. Very much happier flying US, AC, LH.
Jun 1, 2012, 3:23 pm
#67
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
Congrads , as for myself Ive always flown with my Wallet cant remember ever doing so based on my Heart.I believe and practice Loyalty but onto Myself 1st!
Jun 1, 2012, 3:23 pm
#68
Join Date: May 2010
Programs: UA Premier Platinum
Posts: 249
Wonder if all the upgrades were for $, and they didn't want to refund the transactional / marginal revenue?
I have no idea what the comparison of $ is for refund of an involuntary downgrade versus refunding an upsale. Just a thought.
Kudos to the OP for not wanting to inflict a downgrade on anyone else. Hopefully your good wishes will be rewarded.
I have no idea what the comparison of $ is for refund of an involuntary downgrade versus refunding an upsale. Just a thought.
Kudos to the OP for not wanting to inflict a downgrade on anyone else. Hopefully your good wishes will be rewarded.
Jun 1, 2012, 6:18 pm
#69
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVP Gold75K
Posts: 850
Maybe because they didn't follow their own policy.
They were supposed to solicit for downgrades, then downgrade in reverse upgrade order (upgraders first) if there were no volunteers.
3 Y seats together is considered a "flat bed?" Ridiculous.
He also didn't buy 3 x Y seats. He bought 1 x BF seat seat, which was not provided. Blocking 2 extra Y seats was a nice courtesy, but it's by no means comparable.
I don't think people would be happy with it, but that is the policy.
If UA follows through with a prompt refund of the fare difference (which he is due per the downgrade policy), and then throws in a goodwill gesture for not properly following policy and making him chase down the refund, then UA will have done okay.
Anything less is a failure on UA's part, mainly because they didn't follow their own procedures.
They were supposed to solicit for downgrades, then downgrade in reverse upgrade order (upgraders first) if there were no volunteers.
3 Y seats together is considered a "flat bed?" Ridiculous.
He also didn't buy 3 x Y seats. He bought 1 x BF seat seat, which was not provided. Blocking 2 extra Y seats was a nice courtesy, but it's by no means comparable.
I don't think people would be happy with it, but that is the policy.
If UA follows through with a prompt refund of the fare difference (which he is due per the downgrade policy), and then throws in a goodwill gesture for not properly following policy and making him chase down the refund, then UA will have done okay.
Anything less is a failure on UA's part, mainly because they didn't follow their own procedures.
Their policy is reasonable and should have been followed.
Complaining about the color of the walls in the lavatory or that the napkins in FC are now 200 thread count Egyptian cotton vs. 400 would be far closer to using "...any excuse to beat up on what UA did..."
Just because "this happens on other airlines occasionally", has exactly what to do with the OP's situation? Adding a dated anecdote about a situation on another airline which you vaguely remember the details of, and where you weren't even downgraded adds exactly this much to the conversation----> 0
No, it (his compensation) wasn't "pretty generous". If I buy (not upgrade into), but buy a BC ticket, I expect to sit in BC. If I am involuntarily downgraded prior to anyone who was upgraded into BC, I would be near apoplectic...how exactly is it even correct to sell a ticket into that class and then make the seat unavailable? It is patently deceptive to sell a ticket in BC, when that seat isn't available.
OP got a flat bed? I'm not a vehement United basher...please refrain from being an obsequious United apologist...
As for the fare differential, a $1200 voucher would be an appetizer to the additional compensation that I would expect from United. My expected compensation would be the fare differential from what OP paid ($3K) and the lowest available economy fare on the day on which he purchased the ticket (not full fare Y, because if he knew that he was going to get stuck in steerage it is doubtful that he/me/anyone would pay the Y price for that "privelege").
I would have to say that the OP's situation and the accompanying posts critical of UA's handling of the situation are absolutely justified.
Just because "this happens on other airlines occasionally", has exactly what to do with the OP's situation? Adding a dated anecdote about a situation on another airline which you vaguely remember the details of, and where you weren't even downgraded adds exactly this much to the conversation----> 0
No, it (his compensation) wasn't "pretty generous". If I buy (not upgrade into), but buy a BC ticket, I expect to sit in BC. If I am involuntarily downgraded prior to anyone who was upgraded into BC, I would be near apoplectic...how exactly is it even correct to sell a ticket into that class and then make the seat unavailable? It is patently deceptive to sell a ticket in BC, when that seat isn't available.
OP got a flat bed? I'm not a vehement United basher...please refrain from being an obsequious United apologist...
As for the fare differential, a $1200 voucher would be an appetizer to the additional compensation that I would expect from United. My expected compensation would be the fare differential from what OP paid ($3K) and the lowest available economy fare on the day on which he purchased the ticket (not full fare Y, because if he knew that he was going to get stuck in steerage it is doubtful that he/me/anyone would pay the Y price for that "privelege").
I would have to say that the OP's situation and the accompanying posts critical of UA's handling of the situation are absolutely justified.
I flew in E+ from ORD-GRU on May 3. The cabin was largely empty, and I got three seats to myself. I was grateful to be able to take a few naps, and was happy. However, I felt fortunate because I got the seats for the price of a single COACH fare.
Three contiguous seats are only about 5 feet long, they are not very wide, and the armrests bulge in. Not the same as a flat bed Business Class seat.
Jun 1, 2012, 6:27 pm
#70
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: LHR (sometimes CLE, SFO, BOS, LAX, SEA)
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 5,892
If it was an offer ("When I got to the airport, was offered three adjacent coach seats and a $1200 voucher") a modification to the contract that could be accepted or denied by the OP.A fare adjustment would have been appropriate plu some sort of compenstaion, but an offer to modifiy the terms of his ticket to volunteer to do so, and accepted by the passenger should (not would) not (not saying it doesn't, as I don't believe the CoC spells out such an option) trigger such a thing.
If the value proposition is acceptable to both parties to modify the contract for a new contract, then that SHOULD be the end of it.
In the original post, it said he was offered, yet later on, in subsequent posts, he is upset. An offer to downgrade to me is the same as a voluntter. The army recruits, gives offers, and people accept. That isn't constcription or a draft, ratherwe call these people volunteersand celebrate them when they come home for volunteering to do something that we respect. So the body of the initial post, differs from the title as well as the ill will fell in subsequent posts. erhaps the OP was just being kind in using the word "option" and he felt coerced, in that case, the rest of this post is worthless (by me.)
So the question is (and again theCoC and UA policies don't agree with me on this, but it is my question anyway) "Did they offer/request and you acceted, or did they demand/force and you complied?" A VDB is not given the same compensation as an IDB and a volunteer to downgrade is not the same as an involuntary downgrade.
And OD...perhaps "oversale/downgrade" Just a guess, the tol we use is called "oversale manager" but perhaps they call it the OD manager there.
If the value proposition is acceptable to both parties to modify the contract for a new contract, then that SHOULD be the end of it.
In the original post, it said he was offered, yet later on, in subsequent posts, he is upset. An offer to downgrade to me is the same as a voluntter. The army recruits, gives offers, and people accept. That isn't constcription or a draft, ratherwe call these people volunteersand celebrate them when they come home for volunteering to do something that we respect. So the body of the initial post, differs from the title as well as the ill will fell in subsequent posts. erhaps the OP was just being kind in using the word "option" and he felt coerced, in that case, the rest of this post is worthless (by me.)
So the question is (and again theCoC and UA policies don't agree with me on this, but it is my question anyway) "Did they offer/request and you acceted, or did they demand/force and you complied?" A VDB is not given the same compensation as an IDB and a volunteer to downgrade is not the same as an involuntary downgrade.
And OD...perhaps "oversale/downgrade" Just a guess, the tol we use is called "oversale manager" but perhaps they call it the OD manager there.
Hi Fastair - I did use the word "offered" in my original post. But I was "offered" the 3 coach seats and 1200 with the alternative being take a flight tomorrow. If they had offered and I had accepted with my other option being a regular business class seat on the flight I had booked it wouldn't make any sense to complain as you point out.
Jun 1, 2012, 6:36 pm
#71
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVP Gold75K
Posts: 850
Ha Ha...you should email to CFO and see if you are over-entitled...
Seriously - Your downgrade is an undisputed fact. I will focus on getting my refund first instead of writing to SMI/J. See what UA offers you first (From C to the lowest Y available) and the amount is not right, then write to SMI/J. You will have a stronger case then.
But it is interesting that UA downgrade a full fare instead of upgrade - did you check in late?
Seriously - Your downgrade is an undisputed fact. I will focus on getting my refund first instead of writing to SMI/J. See what UA offers you first (From C to the lowest Y available) and the amount is not right, then write to SMI/J. You will have a stronger case then.
But it is interesting that UA downgrade a full fare instead of upgrade - did you check in late?
The problem is that many people do not pay for their own tickets. If there is a refund, it might go to the employer.
For example, I am reimbursed by my employer for coach fares; they will not reimburse for a premium class ticket. If I am traveling on a long-haul flight on behalf of a third party, then the third party will buy a business class ticket for me. If I were to get bumped to coach, I wouldn't receive the refund. It would go to the person who paid for the ticket.
I don't know what would happen to the refund in the OP's situation.
The involuntary downgrade of a paid business class passenger is intolerable. The airline should have asked for volunteers to downgrade, and if there were none, they should have sent an upgrader to coach.
OP is a better man than I - I would have been livid. But I can confirm that UA had kicked out confirmed upgrades as well. I upgraded on an RPU at ticketing several weeks before ORD-LAX on 2/15. Flight got downgauged and they didn't call for volunteers - just denied my BP at the gate and told me to get in the back or get bent. I asked for compensation and got nothing; asked for a blanket or a meal on the plane and got denied as well.
That said, ORD-LAX is only about 4 hours. A downgrade on EWR-GRU would be much worse because of the length of the flight and its overnight timeframe.
Last edited by iluv2fly; Jun 1, 2012 at 10:23 pm Reason: merge
Jun 10, 2012, 12:31 am
#72
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,657
If a walk up, especially one not loyal to the airline can push me out of F or J, then that's the last time I pay cash to UA for premium seats on long hauls.
I agree with you about showing up early and boarding early. I was upgraded (at time of booking before March 2) on a post March 2 flight from BRU, and for the late boarders, SHARES was printing colliding BPs left and right. I was heads down minding my own business, and delivered a firm "no" when asked to change seats (from a middle section aisle on the pmua 767 to a non middle section aisle). Possession might not be nine tenths on airlines but it does seem to count. OLCI early, arrive early, board early, and mind your own business.
Station manager proceeded to downgrade pax, myself included and another passenger, who was Global Services, downgraded. I was on a "Z" fare, the GS was NC at the time. There was also another 1K downgraded. Not sure what his ticket class was.
I wasn't happy with it, obviously. For those who are CO bashing, this happened on PMUA.
To the OP, EWR-GRU : What probably happened was the pax that got your seats were probably working or part of the travel group, that had a large and very lucrative contract with United. 10 people going to a meeting, so they had to bump someone off the plane, this case the OP, to get the group to Sao Paolo.
Still, its strange that the OP, on full fare was downgraded. Definitely an extreme situation.
I'm not hung up on this because I've seen this done on other airlines, as I mentioned previously. You can choose not to accept the compensation and negotiate something else.
Last edited by meFIRST; Jun 10, 2012 at 12:41 am
Jun 10, 2012, 7:00 am
#73
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 36
KPHill Status Level
That's personally happened to me. A small entourage at showed up at the airport and bought the entire first class cabin and a number of business class seats, cash at the airport (they used a cc). Day of departure. This happened outside of the US. In fact, this entourage were in front of me at the check in queue, so I witnessed everything.
Station manager proceeded to downgrade pax, myself included and another passenger, who was Global Services, downgraded. I was on a "Z" fare, the GS was NC at the time. There was also another 1K downgraded. Not sure what his ticket class was.
I wasn't happy with it, obviously. For those who are CO bashing, this happened on PMUA.
To the OP, EWR-GRU : What probably happened was the pax that got your seats were probably working or part of the travel group, that had a large and very lucrative contract with United. 10 people going to a meeting, so they had to bump someone off the plane, this case the OP, to get the group to Sao Paolo.
Still, its strange that the OP, on full fare was downgraded. Definitely an extreme situation.
I'm not hung up on this because I've seen this done on other airlines, as I mentioned previously. You can choose not to accept the compensation and negotiate something else.
Station manager proceeded to downgrade pax, myself included and another passenger, who was Global Services, downgraded. I was on a "Z" fare, the GS was NC at the time. There was also another 1K downgraded. Not sure what his ticket class was.
I wasn't happy with it, obviously. For those who are CO bashing, this happened on PMUA.
To the OP, EWR-GRU : What probably happened was the pax that got your seats were probably working or part of the travel group, that had a large and very lucrative contract with United. 10 people going to a meeting, so they had to bump someone off the plane, this case the OP, to get the group to Sao Paolo.
Still, its strange that the OP, on full fare was downgraded. Definitely an extreme situation.
I'm not hung up on this because I've seen this done on other airlines, as I mentioned previously. You can choose not to accept the compensation and negotiate something else.
Jun 10, 2012, 6:02 pm
#74
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Although, it is known in FT that status matters, OP was ticketed on premium classes. Doubt that is the reason.