To whom do you declare you are taking more than US$10,000 out of the US?
Apr 11, 2008, 6:08 am
#61
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 11,377
WHO MUST FILE:
(1) Each person who physically transports, mails, or ships, or causes to be physically transported, mailed, or shipped currency or other monetary instruments in an aggregate amount exceeding $10,000 at one time from the United States to any place outside the United States or into the United States from any place outside the United States, and
(2) Each person who receives in the United States currency or other monetary instruments In an aggregate amount exceeding $10,000 at one time which have been transported, mailed, or shipped to the person from any place outside the United States.
(1) Each person who physically transports, mails, or ships, or causes to be physically transported, mailed, or shipped currency or other monetary instruments in an aggregate amount exceeding $10,000 at one time from the United States to any place outside the United States or into the United States from any place outside the United States, and
(2) Each person who receives in the United States currency or other monetary instruments In an aggregate amount exceeding $10,000 at one time which have been transported, mailed, or shipped to the person from any place outside the United States.
Monetary Instruments— (1) Coin or currency of the United States or of any other country, (2) traveler’s checks in any form, (3) negotiable instruments (including checks, promissory notes, and money orders) in bearer form, endorsed without restriction, made out to a fictitious payee, or otherwise in such form that title thereto passes upon delivery, (4) incomplete instruments (including checks, promissory notes, and money orders) that are
signed but on which the name of the payee has been omitted, and (5) securities or stock in bearer form or otherwise in such form that title thereto passes upon delivery. Monetary instruments do not include (i) checks or money orders made payable to the order of a named person which have not been endorsed or which bear restrictive endorsements, (ii) warehouse receipts, or (iii) bills of lading.
signed but on which the name of the payee has been omitted, and (5) securities or stock in bearer form or otherwise in such form that title thereto passes upon delivery. Monetary instruments do not include (i) checks or money orders made payable to the order of a named person which have not been endorsed or which bear restrictive endorsements, (ii) warehouse receipts, or (iii) bills of lading.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...6----000-.html
Treasury regulations can be found in 31 CFR 103:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...cfr103_07.html
Apr 11, 2008, 6:25 am
#62
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: LAX
Posts: 453
Exactly! It is not only CASH, it's MONEY over $10k that the law prescribes. Want to be a criminal? Just take out your checkbook (for an account that has >$10k), write $10k, sign your name, cross the border, not report it, and you've broken the law!
I can't see how bringing $9,975 is "just as punishable"!
I can't see how bringing $9,975 is "just as punishable"!
Because it also applies to a family as a group. Next time you go through CBP ask one of the officers working. Don't ask the guy stamping your passort, ask the guy who's supposed to be searching bags. He'll tell you the same thing.
Apr 11, 2008, 6:26 am
#63
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: LAX
Posts: 453
From FinCen form 105:
The governing law can be found in 31 USC 5316:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...6----000-.html
Treasury regulations can be found in 31 CFR 103:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...cfr103_07.html
The governing law can be found in 31 USC 5316:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...6----000-.html
Treasury regulations can be found in 31 CFR 103:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...cfr103_07.html
Apr 11, 2008, 6:50 am
#64
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Programs: AA 11MM/EXP/Aairpass, SPG Plat
Posts: 343
If there is only a single transaction, then I fail to see how structuring can happen. Kind of like one can't build a wall with a single brick.
And if bringing in just under 10K is just as punishable as bringing in 10K, then could you enlighten us as to what the "real" limit is? And what the heck is the point of the 10K limit if the "real" limit is something less than that?
Apr 11, 2008, 7:05 am
#65
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: LAX
Posts: 453
Every case of structuring I've ever read about involved _multiple_ transactions below the reporting threshold, where the sum of the transactions was above the reporting threshold. For example, I know of a gambler that had an interesting conversation with a federal agent because, whenever he won big in poker, he would deposit 9K a day of his winnings into his bank, until all the money was in. That is classic structuring.
If there is only a single transaction, then I fail to see how structuring can happen. Kind of like one can't build a wall with a single brick.
And if bringing in just under 10K is just as punishable as bringing in 10K, then could you enlighten us as to what the "real" limit is? And what the heck is the point of the 10K limit if the "real" limit is something less than that?
If there is only a single transaction, then I fail to see how structuring can happen. Kind of like one can't build a wall with a single brick.
And if bringing in just under 10K is just as punishable as bringing in 10K, then could you enlighten us as to what the "real" limit is? And what the heck is the point of the 10K limit if the "real" limit is something less than that?
There is no limit. Just: over $10,000 declare. Not $10,000, but $10,000.01. The form isn't given to banks, the IRS, etc.
Why not just bring in $9,000 instead of $9,975?
Apr 11, 2008, 11:58 am
#66
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pasadena, CA; southwest Michigan; Oxford, UK... (LAX, ORD, LHR)
Programs: AA GLD (sometimes PLT), former Mileage Plus
Posts: 89
What about precious metals? Further, what if the precious metals are legal tender for a lesser amount than their melt value?
For example, ten pounds (weight) worth of new American Eagle gold bullion coins have a face value of $8000 but a bullion value of $160,000.
For example, ten pounds (weight) worth of new American Eagle gold bullion coins have a face value of $8000 but a bullion value of $160,000.
Apr 11, 2008, 2:10 pm
#68
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Also, glad I'm not the only nerd that figured that $1.35M in cash is not that hard to fit into a rolling suitcase. It would also weigh only about 25lbs (13,500 $100 bills at about 0.03oz per bill).
Apr 11, 2008, 3:03 pm
#69
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ?
Posts: 7,544
Apr 11, 2008, 3:05 pm
#70
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Seat 1A, Juice pretty much everywhere, Mucci des Coins Exotiques
Posts: 34,339
If drug dealers start paying in precious metals, then maybe the Feds will care. Until then I wouldn't worry about it. The money used to pay for all the drugs in the US and Europe are moved back out in cash by individuals who hide the money in their bags. That is what this rule is about. If you are wearing a $200,000 necklace, they don't care.
Apr 13, 2008, 10:09 pm
#71
Join Date: Feb 2001
Programs: IHG Diamond, HH Diamond, BW Diamond Select, Accor Silver, Marriott Gold
Posts: 4,227
The more ludicrous the foreign exchange fees on plastic cards and electronic transfers get, the more attractive cash and travellers cheques become.
Apr 14, 2008, 9:46 am
#72
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: MSY
Programs: NW Gold and now Delta Gold
Posts: 3,072
It makes you stop and think, doesn't it, stimpy? I noticed when I flew MIA-POS (Trinidad) that some citizens of T&T seemed to enjoy traveling with ropes and ropes and ropes of gold necklaces around their necks, not to mention so many gold rings that they could hardly bend their fingers. No one batted an eye. The island is offshore Venezuela, and I later read speculation that drug lords from that country laundered drug money through Trinidad and in/out the U.S. in the form of gold jewelry. Don't know if that's just one of those internet rumors, though.
If drug dealers start paying in precious metals, then maybe the Feds will care. Until then I wouldn't worry about it. The money used to pay for all the drugs in the US and Europe are moved back out in cash by individuals who hide the money in their bags. That is what this rule is about. If you are wearing a $200,000 necklace, they don't care.
It's certainly happened.
May 7, 2008, 1:02 pm
#74
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sweden (but CPH is closest int'l airport)
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Posts: 112
FWIW, another reason to carry large sums of cash across borders is if you are moving... yes, you can do a wire transfer, but that can get expensive, and complicated if your US bank requires you to request it in person, but you haven't opened your foreign bank account yet, so can't do it until after you leave the US... I once needed enough to put a deposit on an apartment, and it would have taken me 2 weeks of going to the ATM every day to get sufficient funds... so I took it in cash so I could deposit it all directly in the foreign bank.
I don't remember which airport I left through (probably LAX), but I remember it being reasonably simple to find the place to fill out the form, and no one questioned me about it. I guess I looked innocent ;-)
I don't remember which airport I left through (probably LAX), but I remember it being reasonably simple to find the place to fill out the form, and no one questioned me about it. I guess I looked innocent ;-)
May 30, 2008, 8:37 am
#75
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It's face amount that matters. The issue was litigated a number of years ago: someone carried about 2,000 silver dollars out of the country without filing. He got caught, and the court ruled that he was carrying $2,000 in currency, which isn't reportable. The fact that it was worth a lot more is irrelevant.