Airline Pilot Salaries
 

I guess this would be directed at pilots and knowledgeable travelers...

I've been traveling for only a few months, so I know I'm a relative rookie. However, I just thought it would be interesting to find out what salaries for commercial airline pilots are as a general rule. Or maybe there isn't a general rule and certain airlines are more generous than other? Maybe it's none of my business, and I'll accept that as an answer too... I fly UA, so I'd be particularly interested in specific info about United pilots...

In my opinion, pilots earn every penny they make, and I'm generally on their side when they complain about airlines' "planned overtime" policies... anytime you take the lives of several, or up to hundreds, people into your hands knowing they trust you to take them safely to their destination, you assume an awesome resposibility than few of us can identify with.

Anyway, I'm just curious to find out where you start at, how you can move up through the ranks (I'm assuming there are rankings, as I've seen stripes on the shoulders of pilots similar to those used by the military), and possibly even what retirement benefits you can expect... call it appreciative curiosity. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

btw, I'm not expecting anyone to give their own personal financial numbers, merely "as a rule" type generalizations.


Mister Internet
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There was a chart in an aviation publication recently that spelled this all out by airline (including box haulers, whose pilots often make more than people carriers' do) and included starting wages by aircraft type, max pay, benefits, etc. so you got the complete picture. I know my husband took it took work, but if he still has it I'll copy it and send it to you. I'm thinking it was the Nov. issue of Aviation and Technology or something like that.

What I remember of it, UAL pilots were near the top, but not at it and maxed out around $175,000 (747 captain) before benefits package. TWA pilots are very low.

In answer to your question, airline pilots aren't hurting for money.

A typical rookie pilot who flies puddle jumpers earn significantly less than $50k.

BUT, once you stay on for several years, you make over $2ooK as a Boeing 747 Captain. The progress a pilot makes in their career doesn't really depend on one's skill but more DEPENDS on the Seniority system. When Captains retire begrudgingly at 60, the next batch moves up a notch based on the DATE they sign up on.

It's a sloow process moving up, but 15 years in can get you some hefty change. Plus, their pension is GREAT, & they fly free with their families on vacation thru the airline. Also they are "required" to work no more than 15 days of the month....so LOTS of down time. Of course, there's that slight risk that your plane can be one of those casualties you read in the newspaper (i.e. Alaska Air has been sited for lax upkeep of their planes, which is why that plane headed to Mexico crashed).

If you wanna make hardcore money in a pretty much no-brainer job, work for an investment bank. They paid us 150k straight out of MBA school (go to a TOP program). Sure you work 85-110 hour weeks, but in 5 years you're a millionaire.....food for thought for the greedy....



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The Man they Call...."THE MAN"!

Check these sites out:
http://www.helpwantedpage.com/Sectio...ries_(WP).html
http://208.217.189.50/internet/feature/worth.htm
http://prodevelop.hypermart.net/Airc...t.htm#earnings

There are better sources out there; when I locate them, I will re-post.

Cheers.

> A typical rookie pilot who flies puddle
> jumpers earn significantly less than
> $50k.

The starting wages for first officers at
most airline affiliates/commuters is in
the teens to very, very low 20's. A buddy
recently interviewed at Continental Express.
He was offered $14,400/year to start. He
got an offer from Comair that barely broke
$21k. He's no rookie - 12000+ hours and
previously qualified/flew as captain.

Some of the unaffilated commuters make
the 1st-officer pay them for the pleasure
of gaining multi-engine and/or turbine experience. Some airlines now charge
prospective pilots for their own interviews.
Some airlines require that prospective
pilots pay for their own type-rating on the
initial equipment that they will be flying.
Note: a B737 type-rating would probably
cost $12k-$18.

> BUT, once you stay on for several years,
> you make over $2ooK as a Boeing 747
> Captain.

I think you overstate the case. If you
are hired young and reach the very top
rungs of the seniority ladder ... and
choose to fly jumbos internationally; you
can indeed earn a salary in the low 200's.
Not many pilots ever climb this high on
the seniority ladder.

Some pilots choose to remain very senior
on smaller equipment because they like to
be home every night, have weekends off and never be reserve (on-call). I have heard
of a few 1st-officers that have declined a Captain slot because they liked the
benefits of being very senior on their
equipment rather than the low seniority
guy on better paying equipment.

An MD80 captain with 15-20 years of
seniority working for one of the (pax)
majors is probably in the $135k range.

The non-union carriers typically pay much
lower wages. As I recall, a VJ pilot was
in the $45k-$55k range for a senior capt.

Still interested? Please remember that
you must pass a very thorough physical
every six months. Blow it, and you can
become suddenly unemployed ... and blowing
it could be for something that is rather
trivial in the rest of the population. (That
would be ... me)

Still interested? Your employer can fail or
be bought out. Will you have a job? How
will the seniority lists be merged? You
could go from very senior to very junior
overnight - think pay cut. Worse yet,
think furlough. Some of today's senior
captains got bumped all the way back to
ramp rat during furloughs earlier in their
career.

Still interested? Some airline execs should
be poster children for the Labor Relations
Hall of Shame.

Don't forget that you'll likely have the
pleasure of belonging to a union. Some
are better than others. The airline mgt
typically has the pleasure of dealing with
several unions - I think NW has 6 different
unions representing their employees.

-doug
CA/SELSI/MELSI/CG
(a substantive collection of FAA
pilot certificates and ratings)

dranz is right based on my recollection of the article I read. It's a rare pilot who's making more than $200,000 and among those it took a long time to get there. There's a good many 737 pilots who are making less than $100,000.



[This message has been edited by letiole (edited 07-11-2000).]

Yes Dranz, can't argue with your comments, except to defend my comments on your misinterpretations.

1.) The guy wanted salaries & you can't refute the fact of what some earn big money, which is over $200k on majors for Captains. (and believeme....most take the job if they can get it......if they say otherwise, it's more likely because they coudln't get it rather to giving the hypocritcal/cynical response to friends of "wanting to be with the family"! LOL!

And very most assuredly I have more Captain pilot friends that share MY view than your token flight "ceiling" buddies (who try to convince their friends, wives & even themselves otherwise to save face).

2.) The low $20k salaries are true if you're very green, straight out of Embry Riddle Aeronautical. And those guys are indeed VERY, VERY, VERY lucky if they can pull a job in the majors (usually thru daddy). They start elsewhere for their experience. (i.e. FEDEX, etc)

But MOST, MOST, MOST pilots entering in the majors are not from school, THEY ARE MILITARY, with LOTS, LOTS, LOTS of experience. Their VAST experience puts them closer to <$50k & are treasured like GOLD for the $1+ mILLION TRAINING THEY GET.

Their salary is GRADED on their years & flight hour experience. Do you honestly think a Captain grade $35k/yr Air Force pilot will leave to join UNITED at "$15,000"!???

Lol!

3.) Thirdly, by "rookie" I mean pilots that are new to the airline system. You could be a very experienced pilot with many hours of flight time but in the leagues still be a rookie, in terms of pay & hierarchical status........liken it to Michael Jordan as a rookie entering the NBA........sure he's a basketball God, but in the NBA system still be considered a rookie in his first year (and not a free agent)...and this will be relected in Jordan's pay.......just like a new rookie pilot entrant in the majors.

Hmmmmmm.......LOL!

SO THERE DUDE!!!!!

PEACE OUT!



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The Man they Call...."THE MAN"!

My husband works for the FAA and spends a lot of time in cockpits ... while commercial pilots used to come primarily from the military, that's not the case much anymore.

Pilots bid for aircraft based on seniority. Yes, many want to fly 747s, but not everyone has the seniority to get them. That's an issue for many pilots in the UA/US Air merger. Senior US pilots will be able to come and bid for 747 slots, pushing lower seniority UA pilots further down the line.

Additionally, if you've had your pick of slots on a smaller craft and now you're stuck with what's left after everyone else has bid their schedule - the red eyes, holidays, weekends - the raise may not be that appealing.

Fed Ex pays their pilots very well - more than most people haulers pay.

As for that "hefty chunk of change", in some parts of the country $200K a year gets you little more than the median-priced home.

Lastly, I'm sorry you don't understand that some people do put their families before financial gain. But, yes, many people do.




[This message has been edited by letiole (edited 07-11-2000).]

For the person who asked why an Air Force Captain would give up his $50,000/year job for a lower paying one, the answers are too many to list. As an active duty military pilot, I can tell you that many of my friends have already left or are leaving their $50,000 year salary for $18000-20000 jobs flying commuters. The main reason is the chance to earn more later, you top out around $65,000 in the military unless you are one of the 20 or 30 people who make general/admiral. Then there is the fact that you won't be forced to uproot your family and move every 2-4 years. And the fact that you aren't forced to spend 6-8 months a year deployed on a ship or in some forgotten corner of the world, usually not even able to call home more then once a month. Oh, and the fact that you don't have to worry about an Iraqi SAM site shooting at you every week, and you can't shoot back until they have locked onto you. (yes they are still shooting at our jets, averaging 2-3 launches a month). And finally, most don't realize the military has a fairly strict up or out policy. If you are passed over for promotion twice, you are seperated from the service with no retirement if you are under 20 years. Since they only select 60% of those eligible in the more senior ranks, it happens to about 40% of us.
The truth is that being a professional pilot isn't a great way to make money, even if someone else already paid for your flight training and for building your hours. Most of you business and first class passengers out there are making far more then the guys up front.

> Do you honestly think a Captain grade
> $35k/yr Air Force pilot will leave to
> join UNITED at "$15,000"!???

posting while drunk again eh?

UAL doesn't pay $15k/year. I never said
they did - *you* said it. You are mistaken. United Express pay starts in the very low
$20k range. Continental Express has some of
the lowest salary ranges in the industry.

Yes; military pilots are leaving in droves.
Flight time is down. Flight slots are down.
The military is downsizing and many pilots
do not wish to do a lengthy desk tour.
Inspite of sizable bonuses, the military is
having difficulty retaining pilots.

Some take less in the short term to become
established with the hope that their salary situation will improve over time.

Your assertion that pilots with 15-20 years
make over $200k/year is utter hawgwash. Those
pay scales are earned by a tiny minority of
very, very senior working pilots.

-doug

The salary for pilots has gotten out of control. In the old days of aviation most pilots had to fly the plane by the seat of their pants. The planes were fairly basic so everyone delveloped very good flying skills. Today, the job is so automated you really never have to fly the plane. The result is aircraft that are much more capable of flying but pilots who do not have the same skill level as past pilots.

Pilots justify there pay by making the claim there is no other job that has as much responsibilty for lives or equipment. What about air traffic controllers? Cruise liner captains?

It is very ironic that "most" pilots want to make it to the 747 captains chair. These are the flights that require the least amount of skill due to the limited number of take-offs and landings done in a monthly cycle. The real skill is required in flying the Boeing 737's and MD-80's that require numerous cyles every single day.

I have that article now. It's from Nov. 1, 1999 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology. I will send a copy to anyone who emails me their address.

A sampling:

Average 1st-year pay is $32,280. AA pays lowest at $2127 a month for 727 FE and Fed Ex pays highest at $4034 for any FE.

Average maximum salary is $169,680 annually. Delta is highest at $17,449 a month for MD-11 captain; TWA lowest at $8,641 a month for 757/767 captains.

Retirement plans range from 0% of final pay (TWA and Southwest) to 66% of final pay (Continental) and most will match 401K contributions at around 2 percent.

Hours worked per month ranges from low of 65 at Airborne Express to high of 91 hours a month at UPS.

In general, average pay at 5 years is $81,186 per year; at 10 years, $133,884 annually.

Tango: Highs and lows of ATC pay are comparable to highs and lows here, with ship captains' pay being even higher. Those that pilot ships into San Francisco Bay make more than $300,000.



[This message has been edited by letiole (edited 07-11-2000).]

Letiole: I would agree that the lows of ATC is similar with the airline pilots but they max out at around 1K. The larger the airport/traffic area the more they earn. This is base pay not overtime. Airline pilots can also earn overtime pay so it is important to compare apples to apples.

The main differnce between ATC and pilots is becuase of the huge amount of stress on the job, ATC people can retire at 55 (and most do). Pilots complain that they have to retire at 60.

As far as ship captains earning 3K---that seems pretty high to me. Captains coming into the Puget Sound pick up a pilot just out of Port Angeles and it is the pilots job to direct the boat safely into the harbor.

Captian Hazelwood was making a lot less than 3K when he was in charge of the Exxon Valdez and look what happened to his boat!!!

As a dependent of one at AA, I'll do my best to answer this in an objective manner.

Being a pilot with 35 years of seniority at AA (not my dad; a hypothetical person) is a lot different than being a pilot. Pilots take a lot of sh+t and work very hard to get where they get. My dad is 58. The government says that two years from now, he will retire. He is a 767 captain based out of LAX and primarily flies the JFK transcons. His typical trips involve flying to JFK, having an overnight at the Milford at Times Square, and flying home. Would you believe that it's not always this good? Here's my dad's abbreviated life story on how he got to where he is today:

- Grew up in a "typical" (if there is such a thing) family. His dad was a trucker and mom was a homemaker.

- Was on the track to become a trucker like his father and enrolled in community college.

- One day, he decided he could do better with his life. Moved to Santa Barbara and spent the next 3 months (and his life savings) getting trained to be a pilot.

- Got hired on with various charters and now-defunct small airlines. 20 years ago, when I was born, he was on unemployment.

- Got a job with Air California, a regional airline based out of SNA. It eventually grew and became AirCal.

- In the mid 1980s, AirCal was bought by American. While long term it was certainly better, my dad barely held captain when he was forced off the 737 and onto the MD80. If he could even get a line (as opposed to reserve), it would typically involve an all-nighter leaving at 2AM, arriving in the morning at ORD or DFW and a tag leg to an "exciting" city like (no offense intended) Tulsa, OK or Little Rock, AR or Lincoln, NE. Where he had to sleep during daylight hours. Arriving home, he would be extremely jet-lagged. This basically meant that in the 24 hours after every trip, he couldn't function and tried to maintain a normal sleep schedule. I can attest to the fact that he was a zombie for 24-hours. He would be so f'ed up returning from trips that there was a "60 minute rule". Basically, none of us were to talk to him or get in his way for the first hour after he got home. This lasted for 6 years before he could hold a daylight line.

- He is at the peak of his career, and really enjoying the opportunities he has. The problem is that he is done in two years.

To those who complain that senior captains get paid a lot solely because of seniority, you are correct. But, I ask you what other companies keep employees for 25+ years without giving them raises along the way? The seemingly excessive salary at the end is a payoff for the hard work and years of putting up with less than ideal circumstances.

Some background information:
At AMR, pilots are paid an hourly rate, which comes from seniority (up to a max of "12 year pay") and the seat and plane flown. A domestic F100 captain makes more per hour than the most senior 777 Int'l FO. American Airlines "only hires Captains." They won't hire people in their 50s because they will never make captain. When someone with lower seniority upgrades to Captain, you have 2 years to upgrade. Upgrading to Captain is not easy, and it is the second biggest test a pilot will ever face. The first being the probationary first year where you have no job protection. Because pilots are a self-selecting group and most incompetent pilots will be 'out of the system', by their upgrade time, most pilots pass. But, if you don't pass, you can't just go be an FO for the rest of your career. You will have one more chance, and if you don't cut it, you have no job. Once you have qualified as captain and served your "lock-in" time, you can go back to be a co-pilot. But, you must prove your ability to be a captain before you can spend your career as an FO. This policy is different from other airlines, but it maintains that only capable leaders are flying the planes.

Regarding those "evil" United pilots not flying overtime. But, using examples from AMR...

At AA, lines (a set of trips flown in one month and "bid" on in the previous month) can be contractually built to 75 hours per month. There are clauses that they can be "flexed" to 78 hours if the company desires. In practice, lines are almost always flexed to 78 hours. This means that at the start of the month, a pilot won't be scheduled for more than 78 hours. Some lines may only have 60-some hours in them, it really varies. But, pilots can adjust their schedules up to 83 hours. One way is with Trip Trade with Open Time (TTOT). Think of Open Time as a giant bulletin board to trade flights. So, if my dad wants an extra hour of pay, he might drop a LAX-MIA trip into OT and pick up a JFK turn. When the lines are built at the start of the month, many trips are not assigned to a crew, but left in Open Time. If nobody picks them up, they may be assigned to a reserve crew. Month in and month out, American is taking the calculated risk that people will adjust their schedules to get over 80 hours. The entire "system" that is American Airlines is built around that assumption. The problem is that when pilots choose not to fly over 78 hours (such as just flying their lines), the company is left short crews. My view on the issue is that if a company chooses to build it's operations around employees performing volunteer overtime, the company is leaving itself open to problems. At AA, these would be referred to as a "WOE (Withdrawal Of Enthusiasm) to volunteerism." While the UAL pilots deserve some blame for the cancellations, I believe UAL shares an equal part for (like every other airline out there...) choosing to operate in such an at-risk situation.

Re: Non-revving
It's not as great as it sounds. If it's important to be somewhere, I will buy tickets. In some cases, it is cheaper than non-revenue travel, which at AA is not free. In fact, AMR makes a few million in profit each year associated with the perceived benefit of "free travel" as you call it. It's nice, but not as great as you may be led to think.

Military
Presently, more new hires are coming out of general aviation than the military. It used to be the case that airlines would hire from the military, but for various reasons, that has changed.

FedEx
... may pay their pilots well, but there is a reason why their life expectancy is 66 years old. You only work the graveyard shift, and you have a few hours to kill in the middle of the night at some hub airport while they do the "sort" before sending you back out. It is not a glamorous life and in many ways is more difficult than airline flying. The only advantage is that cardboard boxes aren't known to have Air Rage.

With inflation factored out, no other career has been more eroded in terms of average salary over the past 50 years. The fact is that relative to cost of living pilots have it a lot worse now than they ever did. It's not a bad standard of living, but fact is, it's worse than it used to be.

I invite you to go to a FBO at your local airport and just try getting your private pilot's license. It's not as easy as you think. There may be increased automation in the cockpit, but don't think for a moment that that means current-day pilots know how to fly a plane any less than the good old days. If pilots truly have it so good, then why aren't you one yourself? When you go to a doctor's office, do you ask him to justify his salary because there is all this new automated health care equipment. Do you have sympathy for him because of how HMOs have "destroyed his job"? A gentleman named Frank Lorenzo did the equivalent to pilots. Read Hard Landing by Petzinger if you want to continue this babble. Pilots are professionals like other well-paying jobs. Just because the job is nontraditional or you don't understand it (and trust me, you don't) is no reason to put them down.

And isn't it ironic that employees strive to become CEOs? Being a 747 captain has nothing to do with how many flights you do per month. It's about the natural progression up the ladder that all pilots do.

Let me guess, you are a salesman for both apples and oranges? Nobody is stopping the pilots from retiring earlier. The fact is that they cannot work at age 60 + one day. Airline pilots can also retire at 55. Controllers aren't forced to retire at 55, so don't make the comparison.

For the record, dranz is spot on. I welcome feedback here or via email.

[This message has been edited by The Who (edited 07-11-2000).]

dude, as usual your full of s h i t! AND you still misinterpret everything! this is the last time I reply to your silly misinterpretations (unless you punch back)

you obviuosly never had rigorous mental reasoning classes....your comments are out of context and are lame as usual.....don't banter with me pleez.....

get a life SiR, uh Miss, uh Mrs. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif




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The Man they Call...."THE MAN"!