The "good old days of flying"
#2
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It's funny that the people who remember "the gold old days" don't remember that all of the problems of air travel existed back in those days:
a) flight delays--not as many flights, but delays were still a pain in the neck
b) airline food--admittedly went down straight down hill, but other amenities made up for it (180 reclining seats, AVOD, etc.)
c) did anyone REALLY like flying in a 707-like first class cabin for 4,000 miles?
d) price - adjusted price, per my economist friend, would be 3-4x higher than market competition has provided
and
e) no status, no structured frequent flyer plans and horrible movies on bad projectors
YMMV, but I've been flying actively over 40 years and I have to admit it has improved as far as price:value ratio.
a) flight delays--not as many flights, but delays were still a pain in the neck
b) airline food--admittedly went down straight down hill, but other amenities made up for it (180 reclining seats, AVOD, etc.)
c) did anyone REALLY like flying in a 707-like first class cabin for 4,000 miles?
d) price - adjusted price, per my economist friend, would be 3-4x higher than market competition has provided
and
e) no status, no structured frequent flyer plans and horrible movies on bad projectors
YMMV, but I've been flying actively over 40 years and I have to admit it has improved as far as price:value ratio.
#4
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It's funny that the people who remember "the gold old days" don't remember that all of the problems of air travel existed back in those days:
Speaking as one who logged almost 2000 flights during the "Good Old Days", I'm sure we do remember the bad with the good though in general, when referring to something that was widely considered good, we naturally tend to accentuate the good more so than the bad.
Writing only with regard to U.S. domestic travel, a few comments in blue below...
a) flight delays--not as many flights, but delays were still a pain in the neck
I honestly don't remember there being any more flight delays back then than there are nowadays. There were less flights back then and so we rarely if ever had delays due to ATC holds.
b) airline food--admittedly went down straight down hill, but other amenities made up for it (180 reclining seats, AVOD, etc.)
Perhaps it would be instructive to acknowledge just how far down hill that food service went. The First Class luncheon menu listed below came from a 3.5 hour flight between Denver and New York in 1972. Food was presented from the trolley, the roast carved seat side by flight attendants who - in terms of service - were generally much more professional than the ones these days who claim their primary duty is our safety. On today's First Class luncheon flights between Denver and New York, you'd be lucky to get a sandwich with some veggies, a side salad and a pre-packaged dessert cookie.
TWA Flight 156
January 1st, 1972
Denver to New York-JFK
707-331B
TO START
ENCHILADA CON QUESO Y CHILES ROJO
A thin crepe filled with a lightly seasoned mixture of cottage and American cheeses… Topped with a colorful and zesty sauce flavored with beefstock, red peppers and tomatoes.
TOSSED GARDEN SALAD BOWL
An array of fresh, crisp garden greens consisting of romaine and Boston lettuce, endive, red cabbage and carrot slices. They are tossed with an assortment of special garnitures and served in an individual “Taiwan” bowl.
Served with your choice of herb flavored vinegar and oil or Roquefort Dressing
ENTRE SELECTIONS
CHATEAUBRIAND
The aristocrat of roasts… A double tenderloin of beef, selected from choice Midwestern steers. Cooked to your liking in TWA’s aircraft ovens and carved at tableside from the rolling cart. Served with Sauce Perigueux.
DOUBLE CUT LAMB CHOPS
From spring lamb, juicy double rib chops are cut and trimmed in the French manner and grilled to your liking… Rare… Medium… or Well Done.
CHICKEN BREAST PILGRIM STYLE
A partially boned Rock Cornish breast with a savory cranberry, celery and herb stuffing… Complimented by our New England Supreme sauce.
CHARBROILED SIRLOIN STEAK
Selected cuts from choice corn fed steers, cooked as you desire…
Topped with your choice of Lemon Parsley butter or Roquefort butter.
SWEET AND SOUR PRAWNS
Delicately sauteed jumbo shrimp artfully blended in a piquant sweet and sour pineapple sauce… Presented on a bed of fluffy rice.
Potatoes and Vegetables in season
Freshly baked Dinner Rolls and Breads
Creamery Butter
THE DESSERT CART
ICE CREAM SUNDAE
A special treat! Fancy French Vanilla ice cream topped with chocolate syrup or your favorite cordial… Kahlua, Galliano or Crme de Menthe… Sprinkled with chopped walnuts
HOT APPLE PIE
An American Favorite… Tangy apples baked in a flaky crust and served fresh from the oven with your choice of rich vanilla ice cream or a sharp cheddar cheese wedge.
Coffee, freshly brewed in flight
Tea
Dinner Mints
In style, substance and presentation, this "Mid-Con" menu is vastly superior to any of the current products masquerading as enhanced level catering on transcon "First" class these days.
Even on shorter flights, the offerings were impressive. I remember full hot and filling meals on meal flights between Albuquerque and Denver or Portland to San Francisco.
As for the loss of meals having been made up for by 180 reclining seats, AVOD, etc, I couldn't disagree more - at least on U.S. domestic flights where only a tiny fraction of total travelers - those in First Class on select trans-con or Hawaii routes - enjoy 180 lie flats.
Everyone else is now forced into lightweight slimline seats that have nowhere near the padding or seat pitch of the seats of yesteryear. As for AVOD, yes we didn't have that but we got by just fine with books, magazines, card games, movies and/or socializing in the lounge.
c) did anyone REALLY like flying in a 707-like first class cabin for 4,000 miles?
Yes, they did. Not that they had a choice until 1970. Part of it was that in the days of the 707 jet travel was still enough of a novelty that many people were genuinely excited just to get on a plane regardless of class. They even dressed up for the occasion! Many of the early 707 operators also had lounges with hors d'oeuvres for their First Class clientele. Yes, there was no AVOD but people got by just fine nonetheless. Many of them socialized with fellow passengers - unthinkable by today's standards where we immediately slam down our window shades, throw on our noise cancelling headphones and take leave of the world around us. While there's no denying that a lie flat seat would be preferable to a 1960s era 707 First Class seat, my statement above re. seating comfort and pitch made those 707 flights even more comfortable for those sat in economy as opposed to the slimline seats found in today's 757s or 777s.
d) price - adjusted price, per my economist friend, would be 3-4x higher than market competition has provided
True in economy though not necessarily so for those paying full fare First Class where on U.S. airlines a higher percentage of premium class passengers are paying with miles and/or upgrades. The inferior premium class service reflects this.
In exchange for those comparatively lower economy fares, we have a seriously diminished product with less comfortable and tighter seating and - on international flights - meals that are a fraction of what they used to be in both quality and quantity.
e) no status, no structured frequent flyer plans and horrible movies on bad projectors
Can't disagree on your first two points. As to the quality of the movies, yours is a subjective rather than an objective opinion. I remember a wide variety of movies far more varied than the bland, family friendly fare forced on us today. Some examples were Witness, The Sting, The French Connection, Westworld... The screens were huge - large enough that even a few rows back you still got a good picture - certainly more enjoyable than peering into the 8" screen on your seatback.
YMMV, but I've been flying actively over 40 years and I have to admit it has improved as far as price:value ratio.
Flying is definitely more affordable than it used to be. And - thanks to status accrued through frequent flyer programs, I've been able to fly in International First Class aboard airlines I could never have afforded to fly upon otherwise.
That said, outside of top flight improvements to Premium Class seats and vastly improved entertainment options for all classes, for economy class travelers the overall flying experience is inferior - crammed into small, uncomfortable seats aboard almost uniformly crowded flights with middling food options served by flight attendants - many of whom couldn't hold a candle to the stewardesses of yesteryear.
Speaking as one who logged almost 2000 flights during the "Good Old Days", I'm sure we do remember the bad with the good though in general, when referring to something that was widely considered good, we naturally tend to accentuate the good more so than the bad.
Writing only with regard to U.S. domestic travel, a few comments in blue below...
a) flight delays--not as many flights, but delays were still a pain in the neck
I honestly don't remember there being any more flight delays back then than there are nowadays. There were less flights back then and so we rarely if ever had delays due to ATC holds.
b) airline food--admittedly went down straight down hill, but other amenities made up for it (180 reclining seats, AVOD, etc.)
Perhaps it would be instructive to acknowledge just how far down hill that food service went. The First Class luncheon menu listed below came from a 3.5 hour flight between Denver and New York in 1972. Food was presented from the trolley, the roast carved seat side by flight attendants who - in terms of service - were generally much more professional than the ones these days who claim their primary duty is our safety. On today's First Class luncheon flights between Denver and New York, you'd be lucky to get a sandwich with some veggies, a side salad and a pre-packaged dessert cookie.
TWA Flight 156
January 1st, 1972
Denver to New York-JFK
707-331B
TO START
ENCHILADA CON QUESO Y CHILES ROJO
A thin crepe filled with a lightly seasoned mixture of cottage and American cheeses… Topped with a colorful and zesty sauce flavored with beefstock, red peppers and tomatoes.
TOSSED GARDEN SALAD BOWL
An array of fresh, crisp garden greens consisting of romaine and Boston lettuce, endive, red cabbage and carrot slices. They are tossed with an assortment of special garnitures and served in an individual “Taiwan” bowl.
Served with your choice of herb flavored vinegar and oil or Roquefort Dressing
ENTRE SELECTIONS
CHATEAUBRIAND
The aristocrat of roasts… A double tenderloin of beef, selected from choice Midwestern steers. Cooked to your liking in TWA’s aircraft ovens and carved at tableside from the rolling cart. Served with Sauce Perigueux.
DOUBLE CUT LAMB CHOPS
From spring lamb, juicy double rib chops are cut and trimmed in the French manner and grilled to your liking… Rare… Medium… or Well Done.
CHICKEN BREAST PILGRIM STYLE
A partially boned Rock Cornish breast with a savory cranberry, celery and herb stuffing… Complimented by our New England Supreme sauce.
CHARBROILED SIRLOIN STEAK
Selected cuts from choice corn fed steers, cooked as you desire…
Topped with your choice of Lemon Parsley butter or Roquefort butter.
SWEET AND SOUR PRAWNS
Delicately sauteed jumbo shrimp artfully blended in a piquant sweet and sour pineapple sauce… Presented on a bed of fluffy rice.
Potatoes and Vegetables in season
Freshly baked Dinner Rolls and Breads
Creamery Butter
THE DESSERT CART
ICE CREAM SUNDAE
A special treat! Fancy French Vanilla ice cream topped with chocolate syrup or your favorite cordial… Kahlua, Galliano or Crme de Menthe… Sprinkled with chopped walnuts
HOT APPLE PIE
An American Favorite… Tangy apples baked in a flaky crust and served fresh from the oven with your choice of rich vanilla ice cream or a sharp cheddar cheese wedge.
Coffee, freshly brewed in flight
Tea
Dinner Mints
In style, substance and presentation, this "Mid-Con" menu is vastly superior to any of the current products masquerading as enhanced level catering on transcon "First" class these days.
Even on shorter flights, the offerings were impressive. I remember full hot and filling meals on meal flights between Albuquerque and Denver or Portland to San Francisco.
As for the loss of meals having been made up for by 180 reclining seats, AVOD, etc, I couldn't disagree more - at least on U.S. domestic flights where only a tiny fraction of total travelers - those in First Class on select trans-con or Hawaii routes - enjoy 180 lie flats.
Everyone else is now forced into lightweight slimline seats that have nowhere near the padding or seat pitch of the seats of yesteryear. As for AVOD, yes we didn't have that but we got by just fine with books, magazines, card games, movies and/or socializing in the lounge.
c) did anyone REALLY like flying in a 707-like first class cabin for 4,000 miles?
Yes, they did. Not that they had a choice until 1970. Part of it was that in the days of the 707 jet travel was still enough of a novelty that many people were genuinely excited just to get on a plane regardless of class. They even dressed up for the occasion! Many of the early 707 operators also had lounges with hors d'oeuvres for their First Class clientele. Yes, there was no AVOD but people got by just fine nonetheless. Many of them socialized with fellow passengers - unthinkable by today's standards where we immediately slam down our window shades, throw on our noise cancelling headphones and take leave of the world around us. While there's no denying that a lie flat seat would be preferable to a 1960s era 707 First Class seat, my statement above re. seating comfort and pitch made those 707 flights even more comfortable for those sat in economy as opposed to the slimline seats found in today's 757s or 777s.
d) price - adjusted price, per my economist friend, would be 3-4x higher than market competition has provided
True in economy though not necessarily so for those paying full fare First Class where on U.S. airlines a higher percentage of premium class passengers are paying with miles and/or upgrades. The inferior premium class service reflects this.
In exchange for those comparatively lower economy fares, we have a seriously diminished product with less comfortable and tighter seating and - on international flights - meals that are a fraction of what they used to be in both quality and quantity.
e) no status, no structured frequent flyer plans and horrible movies on bad projectors
Can't disagree on your first two points. As to the quality of the movies, yours is a subjective rather than an objective opinion. I remember a wide variety of movies far more varied than the bland, family friendly fare forced on us today. Some examples were Witness, The Sting, The French Connection, Westworld... The screens were huge - large enough that even a few rows back you still got a good picture - certainly more enjoyable than peering into the 8" screen on your seatback.
YMMV, but I've been flying actively over 40 years and I have to admit it has improved as far as price:value ratio.
Flying is definitely more affordable than it used to be. And - thanks to status accrued through frequent flyer programs, I've been able to fly in International First Class aboard airlines I could never have afforded to fly upon otherwise.
That said, outside of top flight improvements to Premium Class seats and vastly improved entertainment options for all classes, for economy class travelers the overall flying experience is inferior - crammed into small, uncomfortable seats aboard almost uniformly crowded flights with middling food options served by flight attendants - many of whom couldn't hold a candle to the stewardesses of yesteryear.
#5
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 157
In selected markets, there seems to be more flights. The hub airports, like MSP seem to be better off. Some are not, like PIT and DAY. Some cities, like SEA have more flights.
Many airports being only 1 connection from each other is something from the past 30 years. In the 1960's, 2 stops and interlining may have been necessary.
Many airports being only 1 connection from each other is something from the past 30 years. In the 1960's, 2 stops and interlining may have been necessary.
#6
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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if you had wanted to travel between, say, Baton Rouge and Sacramento in the pre-deregulation era, you would have HAD to interline ... there was no single airline that served both cities
#7
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: California
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In the old days, airlines allowed smoking inside the airplane.
Unfortunately, in a crowded space like an airplane, this means involuntary smoking by others near the smoker. Since the smoking section was larger than the typical number of smokers, some non-smokers were forced to become involuntary smokers because the only seats available were in the smoking section.
Unfortunately, in a crowded space like an airplane, this means involuntary smoking by others near the smoker. Since the smoking section was larger than the typical number of smokers, some non-smokers were forced to become involuntary smokers because the only seats available were in the smoking section.
#8
Join Date: Aug 2004
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In the old days, airlines allowed smoking inside the airplane.
Unfortunately, in a crowded space like an airplane, this means involuntary smoking by others near the smoker. Since the smoking section was larger than the typical number of smokers, some non-smokers were forced to become involuntary smokers because the only seats available were in the smoking section.
Unfortunately, in a crowded space like an airplane, this means involuntary smoking by others near the smoker. Since the smoking section was larger than the typical number of smokers, some non-smokers were forced to become involuntary smokers because the only seats available were in the smoking section.
#9
Join Date: May 2012
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I'll take the airline experience of today over that of the 1970's-1990's.
Food: Yes, the presentation was nice in those glory days, but hygiene and quality was not necessarily as good as it is today. I like the fact that the chemicals and sprays that were used to preserve the food, to keep it looking good and give it "flavour", are not used anymore.
Seats: I remember flying around the world with Delta's RTW airfare at $5,000- $6,200 in the 90's. It allowed me to use DL, SQ and the old Swiss Air. Well, what I got back then in First was a seat that was uncomfortable and offered the pitch of a domestic F class today. No lie flat, no suites and not even a cradle type option. Electric controls? Not very effective. IFE? It was a little TV that came out of the armrest. Any one remember those horrible little cassette tapes of movies that they would hand out?
And as has been pointed out, the smoking was awful. I would come off the flight smelling like an ash tray.
IROPS: Think it's bad now? It was positively awful way back then. The data management systems were terrible.
It wasn't the airlines that were so good back then, but the flying demographic. Flying was still relatively expensive up until the 1980's. It acted to keep alot of people out of the airports and off the planes. And if anyone has noticed, there were far fewer morbidly obese slobs and folks with their bogus disabilities making a nuisance of themselves.
One good thing today is that if someone is physically impaired, he/she can still travel. In the good old days there was little or no assistance given to people with real disabilities. Today, someone with a physical impairment is usually treated with some respect and given the appropriate assistance.
Food: Yes, the presentation was nice in those glory days, but hygiene and quality was not necessarily as good as it is today. I like the fact that the chemicals and sprays that were used to preserve the food, to keep it looking good and give it "flavour", are not used anymore.
Seats: I remember flying around the world with Delta's RTW airfare at $5,000- $6,200 in the 90's. It allowed me to use DL, SQ and the old Swiss Air. Well, what I got back then in First was a seat that was uncomfortable and offered the pitch of a domestic F class today. No lie flat, no suites and not even a cradle type option. Electric controls? Not very effective. IFE? It was a little TV that came out of the armrest. Any one remember those horrible little cassette tapes of movies that they would hand out?
And as has been pointed out, the smoking was awful. I would come off the flight smelling like an ash tray.
IROPS: Think it's bad now? It was positively awful way back then. The data management systems were terrible.
It wasn't the airlines that were so good back then, but the flying demographic. Flying was still relatively expensive up until the 1980's. It acted to keep alot of people out of the airports and off the planes. And if anyone has noticed, there were far fewer morbidly obese slobs and folks with their bogus disabilities making a nuisance of themselves.
One good thing today is that if someone is physically impaired, he/she can still travel. In the good old days there was little or no assistance given to people with real disabilities. Today, someone with a physical impairment is usually treated with some respect and given the appropriate assistance.
#10
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It wasn't the airlines that were so good back then, but the flying demographic. Flying was still relatively expensive up until the 1980's. It acted to keep alot of people out of the airports and off the planes. ... far fewer ... folks ... making a nuisance of themselves. .
#11
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 12
- Pre-deregulation, the premium to move from economy to first class was much smaller than it is today.
- Adjusted for inflation, long-haul fares between major cities appeared much higher than today, easily 3x. Some short-haul fares didn't seem too out of line with what you'd see today.
Also remember, while there were discounted pre-purchase excursion fares, most airfares were full fare tickets, with no advanced purchase requirement, fully refundable and changeable without fees. An of course there were no baggage fees or charges for food. Also, since airlines could not complete on price, they competed on service, meaning service in all classes was much better than what you see today.
Interestingly, the federal government only regulated interstate fares. A big driver of the push to deregulate were the California and Texas intrastate air markets, which had competitive markets and significantly cheaper airfares.
#13
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Without hesitation, I'd take a 707 cabin with the accompanying food, drink, and conscientious service over a latter-day A330 / 767 / etc. with today's grim cafeteria food and perfunctory, borderline-hostile service. Nothing magic about widebodies.
#14
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The F cabin of an Air France or TWA 707 in the 1960s was an enviable, sexy place to be. "Jet age" glamor culture was founded on those cabins.
Without hesitation, I'd take a 707 cabin with the accompanying food, drink, and conscientious service over a latter-day A330 / 767 / etc. with today's grim cafeteria food and perfunctory, borderline-hostile service. Nothing magic about widebodies.
Without hesitation, I'd take a 707 cabin with the accompanying food, drink, and conscientious service over a latter-day A330 / 767 / etc. with today's grim cafeteria food and perfunctory, borderline-hostile service. Nothing magic about widebodies.