Why is domestic first so horrible, and what are the alternatives?
May 22, 2015, 2:08 am
#46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
I would disagree about the Australian domestic flights. I've had business class on smaller mainline aircraft (737?) that had two rows of 2-2 wider seats and a movable curtain, with the remaining rows of business class in regular coach seats. Horrible. My best experience was a 767 that looked like USA domestic FC, 2-2-2. The dinner had no choice at all, although it was good. This was all on QF, which does have some decent lounges, although the transfer between domestic and international terminals is painful.
Fully agree with you that Australian domestic business is crap.
I looked at places to go and new airlines I had not been on to sunny destinations. I looked at Virgin Australia's business class to Phuket. About $4000 each a business class ticket for my husband and myself and god help me looking at what I'd get. I would get what you described above. A seat an inch bigger, slightly more pitch and a curtain a few centimetres away from the last business class row seat. No my idea of business class. If you didn't check the definitions of their travel, such as short haul or long haul international you would be in for a big disappointment.
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
I would disagree about the Australian domestic flights. I've had business class on smaller mainline aircraft (737?) that had two rows of 2-2 wider seats and a movable curtain, with the remaining rows of business class in regular coach seats. Horrible. My best experience was a 767 that looked like USA domestic FC, 2-2-2. The dinner had no choice at all, although it was good. This was all on QF, which does have some decent lounges, although the transfer between domestic and international terminals is painful.
Fully agree with you that Australian domestic business is crap.
I looked at places to go and new airlines I had not been on to sunny destinations. I looked at Virgin Australia's business class to Phuket. About $4000 each a business class ticket for my husband and myself and god help me looking at what I'd get. I would get what you described above. A seat an inch bigger, slightly more pitch and a curtain a few centimetres away from the last business class row seat. No my idea of business class. If you didn't check the definitions of their travel, such as short haul or long haul international you would be in for a big disappointment.
Last edited by VH-RMD; May 22, 2015 at 4:26 am Reason: formatting on iPad is screwy
May 22, 2015, 7:15 am
#47
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I think the key is to remember that it's less horrible than economy class. Really, that's the goal. After a three-hour flight in slimline seats on a 737 or Airbus narrowbody, US domestic first doesn't seem as bad after all.
In my own view, the problems are as follows.
1. It has the wrong name.
It isn't first class. It's business class. But everything got muddled with international business, so they stuck with calling it "first class." But that term connotes polished, attentive service, china, silver, etc.
2. The cabin environment is usually the biggest benefit.
It's usually quieter and less claustrophobic. I can sleep quite well in the first row of a 737. It's not so easy in the back.
3. The airlines fluctuate.
There will be occasional investments: better food, in-seat power, but they're often inconsistent, and there is a pendulum between cutbacks and better service. The airlines do try, but then they have cutbacks, then they try again.
4. The European and Middle Eastern airlines have figured out the catering part. I don't understand why this is so hard for US airlines.
In recent memory, Lufthansa, KLM, Arkia, El Al, Brussels Airlines, and Turkish Airlines have all had great meals on very short flights in the forward cabin. Although there are costs involved beyond the ingredients, these airlines manage to produce large, appetising meals--often with a choice. The cold meals were great. I don't know why the economics are so off kilter that the US carriers can't follow the lead.
Food keeps people happy; it's a sign of hospitality. And the major US airlines just seem to screw this up in first class. I don't understand the barriers.
5. The American carriers have a culture of permissiveness about crew complaints.
Although it certainly can happen anywhere, the US airline cabin crews will often unleash their frustrations with their employers within earshot of passengers. They will argue, whine, moan to one another for hours. It is profoundly unprofessional, and I think it disproportionately affects first class passengers, who can hear all of this chatter from the galley.
6. There is no pervasive train competition.
Except for the Northeast Corridor and a few other places, the train isn't a viable option. And--Acela aside--the service on Amtrak isn't great. And now their safety is of grave concern to all of us. The train stations can be filthy, sad, and uncomfortable. In Europe, the airlines have to compete with a higher standard of service and speed. Services like business class on the Eurostar offer catering, comfort, and speed, that are superior to the airlines.
7. It's not always bad.
There are domestic first class flights with reliable, safe, and reasonably comfortable service. And sometimes the food isn't bad. There are plenty of hard-working, safety-conscious cabin crew, who really do want you to have a pleasant trip. It's just that you can't count on this happening.
8. Alaska and Hawaii are a problem.
Flights from the mainland to Hawaii and Alaska deserve a much higher standard of inflight service (in both cabins.) These are very long flights, and the service does not match what one would receive in a flight of comparable length to an international destination. There are some exceptions in terms of seats, but most of the time, it's a regular first class seat. But it's what the market will bear. Passengers will accept it and pay for it, which is unfortunate.
9. Blankets and pillows
There should be blankets and pillows in first class on any flight longer than an hour or two. That was a stupid cutback. I'm sure someone can talk about how the blankets are dirty. But I don't like that I have to carry my own blanket and pillow with me on board. It looks bad, and it seems weird when flight attendants have to say, "sorry; they took those away."
In my own view, the problems are as follows.
1. It has the wrong name.
It isn't first class. It's business class. But everything got muddled with international business, so they stuck with calling it "first class." But that term connotes polished, attentive service, china, silver, etc.
2. The cabin environment is usually the biggest benefit.
It's usually quieter and less claustrophobic. I can sleep quite well in the first row of a 737. It's not so easy in the back.
3. The airlines fluctuate.
There will be occasional investments: better food, in-seat power, but they're often inconsistent, and there is a pendulum between cutbacks and better service. The airlines do try, but then they have cutbacks, then they try again.
4. The European and Middle Eastern airlines have figured out the catering part. I don't understand why this is so hard for US airlines.
In recent memory, Lufthansa, KLM, Arkia, El Al, Brussels Airlines, and Turkish Airlines have all had great meals on very short flights in the forward cabin. Although there are costs involved beyond the ingredients, these airlines manage to produce large, appetising meals--often with a choice. The cold meals were great. I don't know why the economics are so off kilter that the US carriers can't follow the lead.
Food keeps people happy; it's a sign of hospitality. And the major US airlines just seem to screw this up in first class. I don't understand the barriers.
5. The American carriers have a culture of permissiveness about crew complaints.
Although it certainly can happen anywhere, the US airline cabin crews will often unleash their frustrations with their employers within earshot of passengers. They will argue, whine, moan to one another for hours. It is profoundly unprofessional, and I think it disproportionately affects first class passengers, who can hear all of this chatter from the galley.
6. There is no pervasive train competition.
Except for the Northeast Corridor and a few other places, the train isn't a viable option. And--Acela aside--the service on Amtrak isn't great. And now their safety is of grave concern to all of us. The train stations can be filthy, sad, and uncomfortable. In Europe, the airlines have to compete with a higher standard of service and speed. Services like business class on the Eurostar offer catering, comfort, and speed, that are superior to the airlines.
7. It's not always bad.
There are domestic first class flights with reliable, safe, and reasonably comfortable service. And sometimes the food isn't bad. There are plenty of hard-working, safety-conscious cabin crew, who really do want you to have a pleasant trip. It's just that you can't count on this happening.
8. Alaska and Hawaii are a problem.
Flights from the mainland to Hawaii and Alaska deserve a much higher standard of inflight service (in both cabins.) These are very long flights, and the service does not match what one would receive in a flight of comparable length to an international destination. There are some exceptions in terms of seats, but most of the time, it's a regular first class seat. But it's what the market will bear. Passengers will accept it and pay for it, which is unfortunate.
9. Blankets and pillows
There should be blankets and pillows in first class on any flight longer than an hour or two. That was a stupid cutback. I'm sure someone can talk about how the blankets are dirty. But I don't like that I have to carry my own blanket and pillow with me on board. It looks bad, and it seems weird when flight attendants have to say, "sorry; they took those away."
This is an excellent assessment and really sums up the bulk of the problems. You could also add that through consolidation they've been able to eliminate more than have their competition, so that allows the to offer poorer products.
I will say that I actually quite like the Amtrak for NE Corridor travel. Nothing like a Euro or Asian train, but I've found service to be considerably more pleasant than any of the airlines flying the routes minus B6. The NE Corridor stations tend to be nicer and in better shape too. As far as safety, I'm not overly concerned moving forward. With that said though, the NE Corridor is it. Outside of that, Amtrak is basically irrelevant.
May 22, 2015, 7:38 am
#48
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Totally agree with Mats observation on catering, especially on medium-length narrowbody flights, which all airlines basically treat the same as they do an RJ.
If the F cabin is where the yields are, then you'd think a *slightly* better (yet still small, in the grand scheme of things) investment in the food and wine would pay dividends for the airlines. It would increase what I'm willing to incrementally spend for F (over Y) and likely increase the number of seats occupied by some form of paying customer.
A big strategy in recent years, at least on competitive routes (and yeah, I realize there aren't many of those left), is to move away from complimentary elite upgrades and towards some sort of revenue for the seat. All sorts of -UP fares now show up, primarily so people using corporate travel portals can see them in a coach fare bucket. Various A and P fares are more common and coming down into a price range where both corporate and individual buyers might consider them. Kiosk/OLCI upgrade offers are routinely made.
Overall, the multiple gap between Y and F is narrowing, meaning the F cabin isn't just full of nonrevs and elites on cheap Y fares. It seems like improving the soft product would be an easy way to increase the value there. These are exactly the passengers that *might* actually pay extra for a good product.
I still somewhat disagree with the OP premise that domestic F is "horrible" - it's still better than any bus, commuter train, taxi, or ferry I've ever been on. But it could be a *little* better in some ways that would actually make economic sense for the airlines and the passengers.
If the F cabin is where the yields are, then you'd think a *slightly* better (yet still small, in the grand scheme of things) investment in the food and wine would pay dividends for the airlines. It would increase what I'm willing to incrementally spend for F (over Y) and likely increase the number of seats occupied by some form of paying customer.
A big strategy in recent years, at least on competitive routes (and yeah, I realize there aren't many of those left), is to move away from complimentary elite upgrades and towards some sort of revenue for the seat. All sorts of -UP fares now show up, primarily so people using corporate travel portals can see them in a coach fare bucket. Various A and P fares are more common and coming down into a price range where both corporate and individual buyers might consider them. Kiosk/OLCI upgrade offers are routinely made.
Overall, the multiple gap between Y and F is narrowing, meaning the F cabin isn't just full of nonrevs and elites on cheap Y fares. It seems like improving the soft product would be an easy way to increase the value there. These are exactly the passengers that *might* actually pay extra for a good product.
I still somewhat disagree with the OP premise that domestic F is "horrible" - it's still better than any bus, commuter train, taxi, or ferry I've ever been on. But it could be a *little* better in some ways that would actually make economic sense for the airlines and the passengers.
May 22, 2015, 8:11 am
#49
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Europe doesn't have short haul "first" class. It is marketed appropriately as Business.
There are other distinction as well, such as lounge access. Better food (UA wraps or "cheeseburger", anybody?). And with many carriers, better service.
The seat honestly doesn't matter. Your lateral comfort is similar because of seat blocking.
Most routes are too far too short to notice.
Lets say Frankfurt to Barcelona... 700 miles.
Same distance as San Francisco to Phoenix... that's serviced by regional jets half the time, anyway.
US Transcon are incomparable. Thats a 6+ hour, 2500mi journey.
London to Istanbul covers 1500mi.
But London to Tel Aviv, still a shorter 2200mi, has fully lie-flat pod -- similar to the US premium services.
In both examples, i'll take the Euro version....
There are other distinction as well, such as lounge access. Better food (UA wraps or "cheeseburger", anybody?). And with many carriers, better service.
The seat honestly doesn't matter. Your lateral comfort is similar because of seat blocking.
Most routes are too far too short to notice.
Lets say Frankfurt to Barcelona... 700 miles.
Same distance as San Francisco to Phoenix... that's serviced by regional jets half the time, anyway.
US Transcon are incomparable. Thats a 6+ hour, 2500mi journey.
London to Istanbul covers 1500mi.
But London to Tel Aviv, still a shorter 2200mi, has fully lie-flat pod -- similar to the US premium services.
In both examples, i'll take the Euro version....
May 22, 2015, 8:26 am
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I disagree. In general, the typical domestic F seat isn't a whole lot different than some of the better Y seats. They offer 1-4 additional inches of width, 1-3 more inches of pitch (and sometimes even less than some Y seats), and a minimal amount of additional recline. I cannot sleep in a standard domestic F seat, not a chance.
May 22, 2015, 8:33 am
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Whilst I'm always happy to be upgraded to "First" when I fly domestically within the US, I absolutely agree with Mats' assessment. It is, at best, a Premium Economy offering and sometimes falls below that standard.
May 22, 2015, 8:39 am
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I disagree. In general, the typical domestic F seat isn't a whole lot different than some of the better Y seats. They offer 1-4 additional inches of width, 1-3 more inches of pitch (and sometimes even less than some Y seats), and a minimal amount of additional recline. I cannot sleep in a standard domestic F seat, not a chance.
Last edited by Zeeb; May 22, 2015 at 8:45 am
May 22, 2015, 8:59 am
#53
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I would disagree about the Australian domestic flights. I've had business class on smaller mainline aircraft (737?) that had two rows of 2-2 wider seats and a movable curtain, with the remaining rows of business class in regular coach seats. Horrible. My best experience was a 767 that looked like USA domestic FC, 2-2-2. The dinner had no choice at all, although it was good. This was all on QF, which does have some decent lounges, although the transfer between domestic and international terminals is painful.
QF has retired it's 767s.
Both QF and VA now have 332s with lie flat business class seats but they are usually found on the SYD/MEL-PER flights or the SYD-MEL flights.
May 22, 2015, 9:20 am
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I'd disagree with you there. For me, the seat is the most important difference between coach and first on a domestic flight. That bigger seat is a world of difference in comfort. Especially since it means I don't have to worry about whether the person next to me is going to fit into their seat.
May 22, 2015, 9:29 am
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In general, the typical domestic F seat isn't a whole lot different than some of the better Y seats. They offer 1-4 additional inches of width, 1-3 more inches of pitch (and sometimes even less than some Y seats), and a minimal amount of additional recline. I cannot sleep in a standard domestic F seat, not a chance.
The seat is very important, and yes I fully realize we're basically saying "Y is awful" more than "F is great". That's why F on Spirit, dare I say it, is possibly the best deal in the air. And that's a 20x35 seat that doesn't recline and doesn't include free drinks. Y is truly that bad.
Which airlines do a short-haul narrowbody PE offering that is better than domestic U.S. F? And available for free or cheap to elites? There aren't many...all of the "good" PE offerings I'm aware of are longer-haul and usually at a substantial premium above basic Y. (Not sure of how/if elites get upgraded to PE...) I know there are some nice ones out there...21x40 or more...but they seem to be on the larger planes only.
May 22, 2015, 9:42 am
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I wish US airlines offered something like that. I believe that one airline (United maybe?) that used to only put people in the middle seats next to their top tier elites if there were no other empty seats on the aircraft. That would be an awesome thing to go back to, even though load factors nowadays means you wouldn't get that middle seat very often.
Honestly from my end I'd take a domestic first seat with coach service way before I'd take a domestic coach seat with first service.
Honestly from my end I'd take a domestic first seat with coach service way before I'd take a domestic coach seat with first service.
May 22, 2015, 10:50 am
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I wish US airlines offered something like that. I believe that one airline (United maybe?) that used to only put people in the middle seats next to their top tier elites if there were no other empty seats on the aircraft. That would be an awesome thing to go back to, even though load factors nowadays means you wouldn't get that middle seat very often.
Honestly from my end I'd take a domestic first seat with coach service way before I'd take a domestic coach seat with first service.
Honestly from my end I'd take a domestic first seat with coach service way before I'd take a domestic coach seat with first service.
Domestic F seats are good enough for me that the presence or absence of a seatmate doesn't really matter. The armrest is wide enough and you have plenty of room to set a drink. In Europe, the drink tray sometimes folds down in the middle seat, which is nice, but it's still a 31" seat, which *isn't* nice.
May 22, 2015, 12:24 pm
#59
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Hello, and I apologize in advance if I am posting this in the wrong location.
Recently, I left my job behind a desk to begin consulting, and have gone from traveling once per year, to every 3 to 4 weeks. The majority of my flights are MCO <> ORD on United, and MCO <> DCA on USAirways/American. Almost every flight has been horrible. Despite being in the "first class cabin", I frequently encounter no working power outlets (or no outlets at all), flight attendants who are too busy chatting with passengers or reading magazines to run cabin service, horrible or nonexistent food when they finally do, crying children, and of course delayed flights and lost baggage which plagues everyone on the flight. Every once in a blue moon I'll actually get a decent experience (typically on United) where I sit down, have power and can work for an hour or two, am not distracted by crying children, and have a "there when you need them, gone when you don't" flight crew. But it happens so rarely.
I guess I am ranting / venting a bit, but I'm curious if there's any "fix" to this. Right now I'm paying around $700 per trip, and getting what I consider "coach" level service. I could justify triple that cost for actual "first class", but I can't seem to find anything between a "domestic first" and chartering a private jet at ~$40k per trip which exceeds my budget considerably. Does anyone know of any "tricks" to get better service from the airlines (even basics like working power outlets), or any alternatives to a regular commercial airline that are cheaper than chartering a jet for just myself (something like uber for jets perhaps?)? Google has led me to this site, but hasn't offered any specific answers to my question.
Thanks!
Recently, I left my job behind a desk to begin consulting, and have gone from traveling once per year, to every 3 to 4 weeks. The majority of my flights are MCO <> ORD on United, and MCO <> DCA on USAirways/American. Almost every flight has been horrible. Despite being in the "first class cabin", I frequently encounter no working power outlets (or no outlets at all), flight attendants who are too busy chatting with passengers or reading magazines to run cabin service, horrible or nonexistent food when they finally do, crying children, and of course delayed flights and lost baggage which plagues everyone on the flight. Every once in a blue moon I'll actually get a decent experience (typically on United) where I sit down, have power and can work for an hour or two, am not distracted by crying children, and have a "there when you need them, gone when you don't" flight crew. But it happens so rarely.
I guess I am ranting / venting a bit, but I'm curious if there's any "fix" to this. Right now I'm paying around $700 per trip, and getting what I consider "coach" level service. I could justify triple that cost for actual "first class", but I can't seem to find anything between a "domestic first" and chartering a private jet at ~$40k per trip which exceeds my budget considerably. Does anyone know of any "tricks" to get better service from the airlines (even basics like working power outlets), or any alternatives to a regular commercial airline that are cheaper than chartering a jet for just myself (something like uber for jets perhaps?)? Google has led me to this site, but hasn't offered any specific answers to my question.
Thanks!
Go to Europe and see what you're offered there. In many instances, not even a 31" seat pitch!
E.g. British Airways: fly BA Club Europe, get lounge access. Also get an Airbus with three by three seats across with a blocked middlevseat but no extra width, thirty inches of seat pitch, and mediocre at best food served on small plastic trays, with small plastic service items with a so-so at best mini of wine. No food most flights, but Southwest offers more comfortable seating - I'm not exaggerating one whit.
Variable service, crying babies, on-time and baggage problems, well, pretty much the same. They're part of flying.
Now return to the US, sit in a domestic first seat you can even recline in without impinging on another passenger's kneecaps or laptop, revel in two by two wide seating with extended recline thanks to generous seat pitch. Think of those nasty intra-European flights you took and say "Aah!" You'll wonder at how you were able to post a "princess and the pea" point of view from the perspective of your recent experience and newfound knowledge
. (Said in a friendly, respectful and supportive way from a road warrior guy who retired from operating his successful consultancy 29 years at 200,000+ miles per annum, who has flown over sixty years on six continents in practically every kind of aircraft and condition imaginable from C-130 combat runs to the Concorde.)
Fly safe, enjoy what you're getting (it can get much worse - BA "enhanced" its Euro-fleet just last year, iirc) and keep on FTing to enhance your travel experience; those power outlets are out there, but batteries are more reliable.
Last edited by JDiver; May 22, 2015 at 12:37 pm
May 22, 2015, 12:50 pm
#60
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ROFL!
Go to Europe and see what you're offered there. In many instances, not even a 31" seat pitch!
E.g. British Airways: fly BA Club Europe, get lounge access. Also get an Airbus with three by three seats across with a blocked middlevseat but no extra width, thirty inches of seat pitch, and mediocre at best food served on small plastic trays, with small plastic service items with a so-so at best mini of wine. No food most flights, but Southwest offers more comfortable seating - I'm not exaggerating one whit.
Variable service, crying babies, on-time and baggage problems, well, pretty much the same. They're part of flying.
Now return to the US, sit in a domestic first seat you can even recline in without impinging on another passenger's kneecaps or laptop, revel in two by two wide seating with extended recline thanks to generous seat pitch. Think of those nasty intra-European flights you took and say "Aah!" You'll wonder at how you were able to post a "princess and the pea" point of view from the perspective of your recent experience and newfound knowledge.
(Said in a friendly, respectful and supportive way from a road warrior guy who retired from operating his successful consultancy 29 years at 200,000+ miles per annum, who has flown over sixty years on six continents in practically every kind of aircraft and condition imaginable from C-130 combat runs to the Concorde.)
Fly safe, enjoy what you're getting (it can get much worse - BA "enhanced" its Euro-fleet just last year, iirc) and keep on FTing to enhance your travel experience; those power outlets are out there, but batteries are more reliable.
Go to Europe and see what you're offered there. In many instances, not even a 31" seat pitch!
E.g. British Airways: fly BA Club Europe, get lounge access. Also get an Airbus with three by three seats across with a blocked middlevseat but no extra width, thirty inches of seat pitch, and mediocre at best food served on small plastic trays, with small plastic service items with a so-so at best mini of wine. No food most flights, but Southwest offers more comfortable seating - I'm not exaggerating one whit.
Variable service, crying babies, on-time and baggage problems, well, pretty much the same. They're part of flying.
Now return to the US, sit in a domestic first seat you can even recline in without impinging on another passenger's kneecaps or laptop, revel in two by two wide seating with extended recline thanks to generous seat pitch. Think of those nasty intra-European flights you took and say "Aah!" You'll wonder at how you were able to post a "princess and the pea" point of view from the perspective of your recent experience and newfound knowledge
. (Said in a friendly, respectful and supportive way from a road warrior guy who retired from operating his successful consultancy 29 years at 200,000+ miles per annum, who has flown over sixty years on six continents in practically every kind of aircraft and condition imaginable from C-130 combat runs to the Concorde.)
Fly safe, enjoy what you're getting (it can get much worse - BA "enhanced" its Euro-fleet just last year, iirc) and keep on FTing to enhance your travel experience; those power outlets are out there, but batteries are more reliable.
Go to Dubai, Abu Dhabi, or Doha and check out what Middle Eastern J looks like, especially on regional narrowbody aircraft (QR and EY). That is an acceptable product. Similar to what VX offers in domestic F but with a considerably better soft product. That is a truly acceptable regional business (no, not "first") product for flights exceeding 2-3 hours.