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Old May 13, 15, 3:19 pm   #331
  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri View Post
callum9999, EK tried one, stopped, more recently started a second
where is your evidence re many routes that are profitable for them?
When exactly have I said there are "many" profitable EU-US routes for them? I've said it's possible - you're the one saying there's no business case. So where's you're evidence then?
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Old May 13, 15, 3:19 pm   #332
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Originally Posted by callum9999 View Post
When exactly have I said there are "many" profitable EU-US routes for them? I've said it's possible - you're the one saying there's no business case. So where's you're evidence then?
no, the argument is why have EK only tried 2 routes, stopping 1 of them

have any others ever done any?

9W has/had both TATL and TPAC
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Old May 13, 15, 3:24 pm   #333
  
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Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri View Post
no, the argument is why have EK only tried 2 routes, stopping 1 of them
You're right. They've tried it twice and one time it didn't work - irrefutable proof that no fifth freedom flights between the US and EU could ever possibly work.
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Old May 13, 15, 3:33 pm   #334
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Originally Posted by callum9999 View Post
You're right. They've tried it twice and one time it didn't work - irrefutable proof that no fifth freedom flights between the US and EU could ever possibly work.
i can only speak for myself, but i have stated that you are interpreting my statements differently from what my intended meaning was

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Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri View Post
SQ JFK-FRA (A380 suites) and IAH-DME as well as GRU-BCN
9W EWR/YYZ-BRU
NZ LAX-LHR

EK >
JFK HAM oct 29 2006 - mar 30 2008 (announced stop in dec 2007)
JFK MXP oct 1 2013 -
(their fiscal year runs april to march)
3 SQ
2 9W
1 NZ
1 EK

more would be great, there are reasons there arent

Last edited by Kagehitokiri; May 13, 15 at 3:56 pm
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Old May 13, 15, 4:02 pm   #335
  
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Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri View Post
i can only speak for myself, but i have stated that you are interpreting my statements differently from what my intended meaning was
You specifically said "I agree" to the statement that there couldn't be a business case for fifth freedom flights as they haven't launched them yet.

Unless you wrote down the exact opposite to what you actually believe, I don't think I've interpreted them differently at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri View Post
3 SQ
2 9W
1 NZ
1 EK

more would be great, there are reasons there arent
And Air China MUC-ATH
And Air China BCN-VIE
And Garuda LGW-AMS
And Singapore Airlines MAN-MUC
And LAN MAD-FRA
And Emirates MLA-LCA
And Qatar BUD-ZAG
And Qatar GYD-TBS
And Korean VIE-ZRH

Those are just European fifth freedom flights - there are presumably several more elsewhere.

Last edited by callum9999; May 13, 15 at 4:08 pm
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Old May 13, 15, 4:06 pm   #336
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Originally Posted by callum9999 View Post
You specifically said "I agree" to the statement that there couldn't be a business case for fifth freedom flights as they haven't launched them yet.

Unless you wrote down the exact opposite to what you actually believe, I don't think I've interpreted them differently at all?
"they'd be doing it already."

to add to my last post >
(when the flights started)
late 2007 - 2 9W flights
mar 20 2008 SQ IAH-DME
mar 27 2011 SQ GRU-BCN

(earlier when i said "have any others ever done any?" i was referring to ME.)

Last edited by Kagehitokiri; May 13, 15 at 4:25 pm
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Old May 13, 15, 4:14 pm   #337
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Other SW and S Asian carriers have had or have Europe-US service. For example, Kuwait Airways is dirt cheap quite often but few seem to want to fly them; and yet they make the news every so often when Israelis resident in the US and/or UK fly Kuwait Air but face "problems" with the carrier refusing to accept Israeli passports for travel due to home country laws even when transporting between US and UK.

Other SW, South Asian and Central Eurasian countries have also had or have EU-US service.

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Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri View Post
agree, especially with their "business" being ME connections/arrivals

i wonder if some flights / discussion is just marketing (US is helping..)
Some EK and QR flights are being sought by national airport operators/owners in Europe that want to have a better case for US CBP pre-clearance after the airport owners/operators have already bought into trying to pursue the scheme. I'm speaking of some Northern European airports which want some of these SW Asian carriers to fly non-stop to the US from Europe.

Last edited by GUWonder; May 13, 15 at 4:21 pm
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Old May 13, 15, 4:17 pm   #338
  
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Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri View Post
"they'd be doing it already."

to add to my last post >
(when the flights started)
late 2007 - 2 9W flights
mar 20 2008 SQ IAH-DME
mar 27 2011 SQ GRU-BCN

(earlier when i said " have any others ever done any?" i was referring to ME.)

if you are implying i am anti-ME airlines > http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...l#post24535623
You missed the edit I made on the last post, but I've actually found a comprehensive list now anyway.

http://theforwardcabin.boardingarea....reedom-routes/

There must be at least 100 on there. But you're right, they just don't work...

And I'm implying nothing of the sort - whether you like the ME airlines or not is irrelevant. I'm implying that you don't know what you're talking about!
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Old May 13, 15, 4:17 pm   #339
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
Some EK and QR flights are being sought by national airport operators/owners in Europe that want to have a better case for US CBP pre-clearance after the airport owners/operators have already bought into trying to pursue the scheme. I'm speaking of some Northern European airports which want some of these SW Asian carriers to fly non-stop to the US from Europe.
im sure airports/etc are showing incredible load numbers, but are any realistic?

more pre-clearance is another thing (the list is endless) that would be great

Last edited by Kagehitokiri; May 13, 15 at 4:29 pm
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Old May 13, 15, 4:26 pm   #340
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Originally Posted by callum9999 View Post
You missed the edit I made on the last post, but I've actually found a comprehensive list now anyway.

http://theforwardcabin.boardingarea....reedom-routes/

There must be at least 100 on there. But you're right, they just don't work...

And I'm implying nothing of the sort - whether you like the ME airlines or not is irrelevant. I'm implying that you don't know what you're talking about!
That list doesn't have all such flights, but it's more complete than what is in this thread.
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Old May 13, 15, 4:30 pm   #341
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
That list doesn't have all such flights, but it's more complete than what is in this thread.
we are talking about transatlantic flights between US and EU (7 total including only 1 ME, and NZ is a 'special' case)
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Old May 13, 15, 4:30 pm   #342
  
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we are talking about transatlantic flights between US and EU (7 total including only 1 ME, and NZ is a 'special' case)
Right, now you've added in enough additional parameters to make your point valid, back to the original question. Why does a lack of fifth freedom routes in the past mean there is no business case to do it in the future?

Emirates was neither well-known nor respected in the US/EU until relatively recently. Nor did they have the range of partnerships with other airlines providing feeder flights that they have today. Even ignoring the fact they clearly had other priorities back then, there is absolutely no logic behind the claim that they haven't done it in the past ergo can't do it in the future.
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Old May 13, 15, 4:31 pm   #343
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Originally Posted by callum9999 View Post
Right, now you've added in enough additional parameters to make your point valid, back to the original question. Why does a lack of fifth freedom routes in the past mean there is no business case to do it in the future?

Emirates was neither well-known nor respected in the US/EU until relatively recently. Nor did they have the range of partnerships with other airlines providing feeder flights that they have today. Even ignoring the fact they clearly had other priorities back then, there is absolutely no logic behind the claim that they haven't done it in the past ergo can't do it in the future.
you changed subject away from transatlantic

am i missing legal aspect? is each route approved? even if so, we are not hearing about proposed routes. are we?
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Old May 13, 15, 4:33 pm   #344
  
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Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri View Post
you changed subject away from transatlantic, and you continue to leave out "they'd be doing it already"

am i missing legal aspect? is each route approved? even if so, we are not hearing about proposed routes. are we?
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Old May 13, 15, 4:34 pm   #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri View Post
we are talking about transatlantic flights between US and EU (7 total including only 1 ME, and NZ is a 'special' case)
It is more than 7.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri
im sure airports/etc are showing incredible load numbers, but are any realistic?

more pre-clearance is another thing (the list is endless) that would be great
I'm not in a position to judge how realistic or not some of the airport owners/operators' numbers may be, but I do know of governmental data shortfalls -- but that is from intelligence/security operations side, and not the same as data for commercial business pursuits -- which would indicate to me that if numbers were honestly collected and meaningful, they would undercount the historical demand.

I'm no fan of more U.S. CBP Preclearance than is already in place, but my voice is a voice in the wilderness despite not being in the wilderness. I don't want earlier check-in cut-off times for my US-bound flights than is already the case.
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