Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Travel&Dining > TravelBuzz
Reload this Page >

Is "pilot error" ever a crime?

Is "pilot error" ever a crime?

Old Jul 7, 2013, 8:24 pm
  #1  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,725
Is "pilot error" ever a crime?

This question comes from my kid, and I have no idea of the answer, so I'm asking the FT community.

After hearing so many news reports, including the latest radio quotes from the NTSB which strongly suggested pilot error as the cause of the Asiana tragedy, he asked if the pilots will go to jail for "killing" people, even though it was an accident.

Does "pilot error" at some point in time become a criminal act? Could, would the pilot be prosecuted if he is found to be at fault for the crash?

Based on the Costa Concordia tragedy, it seems sometimes the officer in command of a vessel could be considered criminally libel for the deaths of passengers, but I have no idea if those rules would apply in all counties or all modes transportation.

Anybody know for sure what the laws are?
CDTraveler is offline  
Old Jul 7, 2013, 8:53 pm
  #2  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: YVR
Programs: Aeroplan Former E
Posts: 1,022
Originally Posted by CDTraveler
Anybody know for sure what the laws are?
It depends on the country. Generally the laws are biased towards not making pilot error criminal as otherwise pilots involved in an accident will immediately (and properly) lawyer up and stop talking to anyone. But some things will lead to criminal charges - alcohol or drug use being one, reckless disregard being another.

Here is an FAA paper that gives some generalities and trends and why criminalization can be problematic FAA Paper

As a more general note, criminalization is becoming a larger and larger problem. I've met a few US lawyers who deal with criminal matters and they say that most of the US population could be convicted of a felony as so many "crimes" exist. One mentioned that in Texas, more than a dozen exist just dealing with shellfish. It just depends whether a prosecutor wants to go after you.
Jalinth is offline  
Old Jul 7, 2013, 9:22 pm
  #3  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Indianapolis
Programs: Hilton-Diamond Lifetime Platinum AA UA, WN-CP, SPG Gold.
Posts: 7,377
The contractor who put the ILS out of service would be listed as a co defendant in the action along with the inspector who keep the runway open.

Wonder if they had approach lights,

Yes the pilot is blaming his self, rest assured. the flight cabin crew will blame them self. It was a joint effort.
satman40 is offline  
Old Jul 7, 2013, 10:02 pm
  #4  
Moderator: Information Desk, Women Travelers, FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Programs: AA Gold
Posts: 15,610
Originally Posted by satman40
The contractor who put the ILS out of service would be listed as a co defendant in the action along with the inspector who keep the runway open.

Wonder if they had approach lights,

Yes the pilot is blaming his self, rest assured. the flight cabin crew will blame them self. It was a joint effort.
Are you a licensed attorney? Can you explain the grounds for criminally prosecuting the contractor?

I could see someone making the argument that the airport was negligent in a civil lawsuit, but I can't imagine that the contractor was negligent in any way, shape or form.
chgoeditor is offline  
Old Jul 7, 2013, 10:06 pm
  #5  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atherton, CA
Programs: UA 1K, AA EXP; Owner, Green Bay Packers
Posts: 21,691
In cases of gross negligence, certainly the pilot could be charged.
Doc Savage is offline  
Old Jul 7, 2013, 10:11 pm
  #6  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,725
Originally Posted by satman40
The contractor who put the ILS out of service would be listed as a co defendant in the action along with the inspector who keep the runway open.

Wonder if they had approach lights,

Yes the pilot is blaming his self, rest assured. the flight cabin crew will blame them self. It was a joint effort.
Please keep in mind that my question was not asked to start a "blame game" for the Asiana tragedy - that's the job of the NTSB. Rather, we want to know if "pilot error" can in any circumstances constitute a form of criminal conduct subject to prosecution.
CDTraveler is offline  
Old Jul 7, 2013, 10:11 pm
  #7  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by satman40
The contractor who put the ILS out of service would be listed as a co defendant in the action along with the inspector who keep the runway open.

Wonder if they had approach lights,

Yes the pilot is blaming his self, rest assured. the flight cabin crew will blame them self. It was a joint effort.
The ILS was out of service and was on the ATIS. The pilot accepted the runway without an ILS and accepted a visual approach. That is ALL on the pilot.

The runway doesn't close in visual conditions simply because the ILS (More specifically in this case, the glideslope) is out of order. ILS is only 1 of many approaches that can be done into that airport.
Felipe Martinez is offline  
Old Jul 7, 2013, 10:12 pm
  #8  
Moderator: American AAdvantage
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Matre-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
The weather at SFO was what in the old days we called "CAVU" - you could not have better weather for flying, and pilots learn before they take instrument training to fly Visual Flight Rules. The ILS has been out for a month at SFO 28 and everyone landing on 28L has had no problems landing without ILS; it seems PAPI was available as well as other instrumented aids, not to mention the trained human eyeball, Mark I.

It's also instructive to recall, that, if a pilot believes conditions are dangerous to the aircraft or passengers, they have the ability (obligation) to refuse any instruction from Air Traffic Control. With four cockpit crew, including some very experienced personnel, they could have rejected ATC instructions, made alternate requests, etc.

To be held criminally liable they would have to be found criminally negligent, etc. by a court.

None of this means they committed errors, which from the findings so far it appears was done - but the NTSB investigation is still in its preliminary stages, so there's no reason to begin to make judgments we are not in the position to make.

This is a good time to teach a lesson to a curious child, IMO, in jurisprudence, in patience, in waiting to see what is developed in terms of evidence, due process, etc. etc. rather than acting hastily on the basis of imperfectly drawn conclusions based on media excitement, etc.

(Sometimes, albeit rarely, it is genuinely simple, such as the Air Botswana incident in 1999 when a pilot took a BAe 146 into the air, then dove into the remaining fleet and destroyed it - virtually anything is more nuanced.)

Originally Posted by satman40
The contractor who put the ILS out of service would be listed as a co defendant in the action along with the inspector who keep the runway open.

Wonder if they had approach lights,

Yes the pilot is blaming his self, rest assured. the flight cabin crew will blame them self. It was a joint effort.
JDiver is offline  
Old Jul 7, 2013, 10:17 pm
  #9  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,334
The question reminded me of a crash a couple years ago over the Amazon involving a domestic airline/flight and a large private jet for American corporate executives. IIRC the private pilots were jailed in Brazil.
MSPeconomist is offline  
Old Jul 7, 2013, 10:29 pm
  #10  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,725
Originally Posted by JDiver
(Sometimes, albeit rarely, it is genuinely simple, such as the Air Botswana incident in 1999 when a pilot took a BAe 146 into the air, then dove into the remaining fleet and destroyed it - virtually anything is more nuanced.)
And some crashes remain highly suspicious, even after the investigation.

A good friend of mine died on Silk Air 185.
CDTraveler is offline  
Old Jul 7, 2013, 10:49 pm
  #11  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVP, Hhonors Gold, National Executive, Identity Gold, MLife Gold
Posts: 2,687
Plenty of other threads for this type of speculation (which is in poor taste, though I'm not at all surprised).
OverThereTooMuch is offline  
Old Jul 8, 2013, 1:23 am
  #12  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Home
Programs: AA, Delta, UA & thanks to FTers for my PC Gold!
Posts: 7,676
Originally Posted by OverThereTooMuch
Plenty of other threads for this type of speculation (which is in poor taste, though I'm not at all surprised).
OP's not shooting for speculation. Did you even read OP's posts carefully?

Originally Posted by CDTraveler
Please keep in mind that my question was not asked to start a "blame game" for the Asiana tragedy - that's the job of the NTSB. Rather, we want to know if "pilot error" can in any circumstances constitute a form of criminal conduct subject to prosecution.
lin821 is offline  
Old Jul 8, 2013, 1:41 am
  #13  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: PEK
Programs: A3*G, UA Gold EY Silver
Posts: 8,925
If this was the pilot's first landing in a 777 and he flew only 747s before, it's conceivable that he was aiming too low.
Palal is offline  
Old Jul 8, 2013, 1:47 am
  #14  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by OverThereTooMuch
Plenty of other threads for this type of speculation (which is in poor taste, though I'm not at all surprised).
This isn't speculation by any means, it's a general question posed by the OP

To get back to the OP's question, I assume that there are certain cases where pilot error can lead to criminal charges but for that to be the case there would have to be gross negligence on the part of the pilot. The same would also apply if they were found to be under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

Obviously it's too early to know what caused Asiana 214 to crash, but I'll await the outcome of the NTSB investigation with interest.

Out of interest, does anyone know if the pilots are protected by law/unions if they make a mistake that causes an accident?
Y29M is offline  
Old Jul 8, 2013, 1:57 am
  #15  
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,576
There are usually wrongful death and damage to property lawsuits filed against the airline after every accident. These happen regardless of who is at fault (both UA and AA were sued for the 9/11 incident, for example). Most of these are settled by the airline's insurance company. I guess one could theoretically sue the pilot as well, but the airline has more money (I'm not being facetious, that's how lawyers think).

With regard to criminal liability, it would apply only in case of negligence. Think about driving: getting into an accident is not a crime, even if it was your fault because you weren't paying attention. But if you were violating a specific rule (driving while intoxicated, talking on the phone, etc.) then that is a criminal matter.

Here is ALPA's take: http://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/mag...lLiability.htm
cbn42 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.