nsx

Here's another one. A pet store is selling puppies, but there's one malformed puppy that nobody wants. They offer you $10 off if you add that puppy to your purchase. You agree. Just before you walk out the door you take the puppy out of its carrier and put in on the floor. Is that ethical?

pinniped

Well, if you're going to use the oversell argument, be consistent: they'd use it on B->C in the same fashion they'd use it on A->B. Since B is almost always a hub airport, there probably is a standby list in play and people who want the seat.

The only airline I can think of where you could "cost" them something would be on a Southwest direct flight, simply because you'd confuse their thru count and potentially cause an operational delay. (Since WN doesn't penalize hidden-city, you can tell the gate agent when you depart a flight earlier than they expect. I've done that in Dallas a couple times.)

For any timeshare pitch I've ever listened to, I got the goodies *after* the pitch was complete. @:-)

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

Whether or not the COC is valid is another issue. You are only agreeing to contract terms so far as they are valid.

As far as I know, a passenger cannot agree to a penalty in a contract because they are not allowed (at least in many jurisdictions around the world).

I wouldn't necessarily be basing my ethical decision merely on what is written in a contract.

channa

The B2G2 example is not stealing because there is no contract with the grocery store that you must use, consume, or even take the product.

The T-shirt example, however, contractually requires that you dye the T-shirt, but is not completely analogous because it doesn't allow for the fact that a connecting flight is the sum of two parts. Ergo, the contract needs to be modified such that you must wear the T-shirt as a white T-shirt for a period of time before dyeing it green, then wear it dyed.

You cannot dye it prior to wearing it, as that would be analogous to a nonstop flight, which is not what's being bought. You must wear it white for a specified period, then dye it, then wear it again.

So really, we need two t-shirts and a contract:

1. The White T-Shirt ($20)
2. The Green T-Shirt ($10)
3. The White & Green T-shirt Combo ($12)

If you want a green T-shirt, you must be a resident of Chicago. Since you live in Minnesota, I will not sell you a green T-shirt.

However, I will sell you a White & Green T-shirt combo if you sign a document stating that every day you wear either shirt, you agree to wear the white T-shirt, followed by the green T-shirt, in equal increments, in that order, that calendar day. Unless you sign the contract I will not sell you a combo.

I will sell you a white T-shirt straight up if you'd like.

Ber2dca

The ethics of contracts put to the end user which use arcane terminology, include dubious clauses which may well be unenforcable and are designed to not be read or understood by the layman are extremely questionable in themselves.

And airline CoC along with software EULAs are probably leading the way with that sort of thing. It's my firm opinion that if there wasn't usually a political interest in maintaining the airline industry in its current form, many of its practices would have already been deemed illegal. In fact, in the EU where corporate power is less pronounced than in the U.S., there already have been judgments deeming certain common practices of the industry illegal.

I'm not gonna argue with you on the legality of the situation especially in a U.S. context because it is what it is, but ethics? Ethics? Too funny.

Tchiowa

Nope. B is almost never a hub.

Example would be SFO>NYC or SFO>MKE>NYC. They give you a cheaper fare because those 2 flights, particularly the MKE>NYC is underutilized.

Go back to the dog argument. You're in a pet store. You want a dog that's $20. There's a deformed dog that nobody wants. They owner wants it gone. So he tells you "$20 for the dog you want and I'll give you $10 to take the other dog". You say OK, pay the $20, take the $10 then don't take the other dog.

You cheated the pet store.

jrl767

I doubt that assertion ... can you identify an airline that DOESN'T hub at MKE that offers a thru fare SFO-MKE-NYC ? further, most hidden-city inquiries that we see here deal with post-hub legs

jewels421

Agreed on the post-hub legs piece. The only times I have been tempted to do this have been booking XXX-ORD-YYY, when I actually wanted to go to ORD. YYY is almost always a non-hub, and sometimes it's an Essential Air Service subsidized airport. To me, the subsidies issue is a very good reason not to do this.

aktchi

My feeling is that eventually something like this will have to to be addressed by the courts. We don't live in slavery: that means you can't force someone to do something against their wish. People do have a right to change their mind. Etc. Contracts are routinely litigated. Heck, there is even an entire branch of law for that, "Contract Law". So issues are not as simple as saying you agreed. We can talk till hell freezes, but this won't be settled without serious litigation as high as it would go.

aktchi

Wrong analogy because a dog is a living being which brings in other issues. For example you can't/shouldn't just abandon it outside the store.

However, let's consider a book store or an electronics store. If the owner gave me an extra book or gadget (perhaps with cosmetic defects) as an incentive, I would have no qualms about throwing it in a trash can.

84fiero

The airlines' perspective is that the problem isn't that you're using less, it's that you're using a different market price than the price that would have applied for the journey you actually took.

Sure, if a contract term is contrary to applicable law, then that term would be unenforceable if it came down to it - though the remaining valid portions of the contract would remain undisturbed. AFAIK the CoC prohibitions against hidden city ticketing aren't against any law in the U.S. but I'd have no idea about other countries.

It may depend in some cases on what remedy the airline has in their CoC and chooses to use. For example United has a list of several actions, including deleting MP miles, revoking elite status. But one of those is to assess the passenger the difference between the fare paid and the applicable fare for the trip actually taken. UA would argue that this isn't a penalty but rather making UA whole for the value of the service the passenger actually used compared to what the passenger initially paid.

pinniped

Nobody fortress-prices MKE.

Hidden-city is used primarily to get to hubs. CVG, CLT, and DTW seem to be the prime examples found around FT, with a dose of ORD, DEN, and DFW here and there as well. It's the hub-and-spoke airlines who vigorously oppose it, and it's precisely because of their monopoly position in certain cities.

The U.S.'s large non-hub-and-spoke airline, Southwest, has said "go ahead and use hidden-city if you can find it...just tell us about it when you disembark early." My example of DAL (where I've done WN hidden-city) saved a few bucks when they're running good OKC specials, but it wasn't an extreme case where WN holds Dallas hostage.

jrl767

there's another angle here: in the case of a no-show the airline can still sell the unused seat (or use it to accommodate a standby passenger), so in some cases they may actually be able to recoup a portion of the revenue they didn't get on the original purchase

as has been mentioned, a lot of "throwaway" segments are outbound from hubs ... and as we all know, day-of-departure purchases from hubs are seldom at bargain prices

my last hidden-city itinerary was on US about three years ago: XXX-DCA was over $500 whereas XXX-DCA-YYY was approx $225 and DCA-YYY was also about $225 ... when I checked in and printed BPs at approx T-8 hrs, there were only two of 37 seats open on DCA-YYY; as I was making my way thru the crowds by the shuttle bus doors at DCA I heard the GA soliciting volunteers for that flight

this may have been discussed in the 700+ posts upthread, but a search for "resell unused seat" came up empty

BearX220

As you well know, air travel is not sold by the mile and your point is moot. Value is decoupled from distance, a point made about 500 times in this thread. By your reasoning a Subway sandwich ought to cost more than a plate of sushi at Nobu, and a Greyhound bus ought to cost five times more than an Aston Martin, because it's five times as long. False construct.

pinniped

All of the analogies here are false constructs.

I laughed at the puppy one, though. That was good. @:-)