...and "Cherokee" and "Tsalaki" are two attempts to render the name of that tribe into English..
Who is to say which is more correct?
Peking and Beijing are likely the same type of thing....I'm not sure there was any colonial arrogance or laziness involved!
"Peking" and "Beijing" simply come from different Chinese dialects. The latter is the standard Mandarin pronunciation.
"Guangzhou" is the Mandarin name of the city that the locals call Gwongzau. "Canton" is a Western mispronunciation of "Guangdong," the province where the city is located.
Korea deserves a mention because, in most Asian languages, it has two entirely different names: Hanguk (韓国), which is used by what we call South Korea, and Choson (朝鮮), adopted by North Korea. In Japanese, Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese, it's thus impossible to use the name without making a political statement! When Japanese broadcaster NHK wanted to show a "Let's Learn Korean"-type program on TV, they couldn't use either term for the Korean language, so they had to call it "Hangul-go" after the script -- kind of like using the name "Alphabet-ish" to refer to English.
The English "Korea" derives from Goryeo, an ancient Korean dynasty, and perversely enough this mutated, obsolete name has been imported back into Japanese as a neutral way around the problem: call the country Koria and you aren't taking sides anymore.
And after all, if the British, instead of the French, had transliterated Vientiane, I guess we'd know the city as Vienchang or something like that. But the French had trouble with the "ch" type of sound in the middle, and so the transliteration that they have was a way of trying, as best they could, to convey the name according to the spelling conventions of their language. I doubt any insult or lack of regard was particularly intended. And indeed, probably neither Vientiane nor Vienchang gives a completely accurate rendering of the original...
Indeed - which is why "Kampuchea" and (in French) "Cambodge" (and of course "Cambodia" in English) all derived from the same root.
Whereas in the US, Australia and New Zealand (just to name a few), we just keep the native name. A few examples off the top of my head: Massachusetts, Connecticut, Ohio, Illinois, Mississippi, Tennessee, Missouri, Minnesota, Iowa, Oklahoma, Idaho, Utah and Oregon.
And the language nerd part of me would love to know just how close some of those are to the original pronunciation. Alas, job schedules and little girl consume my time.
As for the US: I think Oconomowoc, WI has one of the coolest names.
The Netherlands in Welsh is Yr Iseldiroedd - literally, the lowlands - while the English tend to call it Holland.
Low countries is what the literal name of the country is names including Welsh, English, German, Spanish and Dutch, among others. I think the English preference for Holland is because the English probably did trade with/rivalled the 2 provinces of Holland and by extension so named the whole country.
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But can say that I have observed that many Brits have a seemingly chauvinistic love of pronouncing foreign language words according to English pronunciation rules, (for instance, pronouncing "Muenchen" in a way that sounds much more like "munching" than "moonchen," completely setting aside the "ch" sound issues)*, so that has fed my suspicion about the place names.
*Yes, a typical American might very well pronounce "Muenchen" the same way, but would more likely do so out of ignorance than chauvinism.
There was a funny segment on Top Chef I believe where the British food critic/judge criticized the American judges for somewhat correctly pronouncing "paella." He said something along the lines of "why would you try to pronounce it according to the original language since you're not of that culture" (I'm really rephrasing here because I can't remember the exact quote) -- to which one of the other food critics/judges replied, "well of course I'm going to pronounce it correctly" and gave a direct nod to her Latin American heritage. I think the British judge felt that the Americans were putting on airs and not pronouncing it like they would at home but didn't realize that particularly with Spanish names, Americans often use a somewhat correct Latin American pronounciation in common usage especially for food items...such as paella, tortilla.
I also remember our consternation as students in English class learning that Don Juan (the poem) needed to be pronounced differently than we'd thought.
It still causes me confusion that Mailand (German) is Milan/Milano (English/Italian).
The mishearing of "Deutsch" (German) is a big part of the reason why we refer to Pennsylvanian German settlers as "Pennsylvania Dutch" -- when they weren't settlers from Holland at all .
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkcat
where have you been? Mars?
It is counter intuitive, though, since Dubh Linn would be a good Gaelic name. I was told that since most of the settlers in the South of Ireland were English, they mangled place names much more than the Scots settlers in the North who were more accustomed to the language. Place names in Celtic languages and in English can be very different. Today I was reminded of Yr Wyddgrug = Mold.
>>To go back to Dutch examples... when I was commuting by ferry, 20-odd years ago, Hoek van Holland was generally referred to by its Dutch name here, both in spoken use and in timetables and brochures etc. For some reason both ferry and train company now insist on using the old English name, "Hook of Holland". I don't know why they're doing it. It looks like a retrograde step to me. It's not as if Brits couldn't get their tongues round the proper name![/quote]
Especially considering that "hoek" in Dutch means "corner", not "hook"...
Place names in Celtic languages and in English can be very different. Today I was reminded of Yr Wyddgrug = Mold.
There can also be confusing origins. In Wales, again, the town which in English is called Rhyl comes from Y Rhyl in Welsh but that comes from the English 'hill' with Yr meaning 'the' added and the spelling put into the orthographic Welsh.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garethmorgan
There can also be confusing origins. In Wales, again, the town which in English is called Rhyl comes from Y Rhyl in Welsh but that comes from the English 'hill' with Yr meaning 'the' added and the spelling put into the orthographic Welsh.
I like that
I was told - may be wrong - that An Gearasdan (Fort William in Gaidhlig) was derived from a slightly incorrect transliteration of the English word "garrison".
