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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJCFlyerLG
Why is it that right-wingers are so eager to discount any story that runs contrary to their fantasyland notion of the red, white, and blue? Take the time to read this thread - may posters corroborate similar events. I fully believe that there are agents abusing their power under the guise of preventing terrorism.
Most likely the same reason most left wingers tend to believe everyone of these "fantasy land stories". But I am much too busy "picking my molars" to go into detail
Same when I have applied for an Iranian visa, and I get to the question that says something like "please list all the countries you have visited," and I write "most of them" -- I'm not going to try to list all of them and set myself up for a possible perjury charge because I forget that I went to Andorra for 36 hours in 1993.
Curious you are between Prague and Dubai -- I am between Stockholm and Doha, but thinking about caving in to pressure from friends who have been trying to persuade me to move to Prague for years now. In fact, I have several Czech friends in Dubai who are always going back and forth.
I think I listed all of them on my Iranian visa application - can't quite recall as it was 1998, but I am hoping to return in the spring - Mashad gets very cold in the winter months. Have you been in Iran recently? You might try "most of them but not Occupied Palestine or Iraq"
I am actually looking to move from Prague and considering Munich or Zurich... never really thought about Stockholm, but it could be an option. I am self employed via the US so most places will let me get a sort of "I don't need to work on the local economy" visa. Prague has gotten very expensive... three years ago 1USD was 26CZK, now it is 16 (up from 14 a few weeks ago).
What do you do in Stockholm and Doha? I think I'd trade Prague and Dubai for this city pair.
Why is it that right-wingers are so eager to discount any story that runs contrary to their fantasyland notion of the red, white, and blue? Take the time to read this thread - may posters corroborate similar events. I fully believe that there are agents abusing their power under the guise of preventing terrorism.
Actually like most other situations the truth of this and other similar claims is likely somewhere in the middle. You take the post of one person with a clear agenda and count it as gospel. My guess is there is another side to this story.
And if you read some of my posts, I am 100% in favor of losing the "Patriot Act", the DHS and the TSA. Yes, we need security, but professional and respectful of the constitution. I know that goes against the prejudice you have for anyone who doesn't tilt left, but get over yourself.
Why is it that right-wingers are so eager to discount any story that runs contrary to their fantasyland notion of the red, white, and blue? Take the time to read this thread - may posters corroborate similar events. I fully believe that there are agents abusing their power under the guise of preventing terrorism.
There is a strong element of nazism, racism, religious bias and hatred for all things non judeo-christian that is at play here.
What the OP experienced in JFK is nothing compared to what people outside the u.s experience at the hands of individuals bearing u.s. passports who may or may not have engaged in acts that might or might not have resulted in a state of affairs ranging from slight inconvenience to irreversible and terminal injury.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Landing Gear
Agreed.
I have never had any problem whatsoever with Immigration despite the fact that someone with the same name and birthday is on the "watch list." In fact, no matter how awful a flight might have been, I know I can look forward to a friendly greeting of "welcome home" when I get to the head of the line.
Well you're a lucky person. Move confidently to the front of the line- for now! Just be glad you're not the 8-year old that's on the terrorist watch list! CNN -our trusted source of information- can provide you with more insights there. When it happens to you you'll be so dumbfounded to be home you won't believe you're here!
I am a dual US/Italian citizen and have encountered some of the rudest immigration officers in all of my travels in the US- particularly in airports where there aren't too many flights (i.e. Boston) but also to a lesser degree in major airports. I can sense officials salivating as we first-to-disembark passengers enter into the immigration area... "DUDES, the Dublin flight just arrived! Let's get 'em! You know those Europeans...they all want to overstay their visas! Them and the Mexicans, damn 'em!"
I've gotten all kinds of memorable comments from US Immigration. Two recent ones of many...
1) Buenos Aires-JFK:
Officer: "How long were you in Brazil?"
Me: Sir, "I was in Argentina, not in Brazil."
Officer: banging his fist (?! ah, do we have some anger issues here?) DON'T YOU BE A WISE ... WITH ME OR I'LL HAVE YOU HERE ALL DAY
Proceeded by a toss of my passport and "have a nice day"
2) Oneworld Itinerary including the Middle East where I had gone as a tourist.
Officer: "Where are you coming from?"
Me: "Italy, France, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Sweden, Finland..."
Officer: "Why did you go THERE?"
Me: "Where?"
Officer: "Lebanon, I--raq"
Me: "I wasn't in Iraq"
Slightly peeved but moreover embarrassed by the C- in his 5th grade geography, the officer proceeds to grab the red marker and put a BIG check mark on my customs form.
For the next two hours first it was Bubba the Vietnam vet and Mikey the guy from Southie- clearly resentful that I had the opportunity to travel. Varying degrees of rudeness ensued but a clear militaristic streak was apparent.
But then a somewhat pleasant surprise was the more seasoned senior official that proceeded to ask me every imaginable question on the planet, including
-Where did I go to elementary school
-High school
-College, what did you study (International Relations didn't go over very well!)
-Grad School
-Work experience for the past 20 years
-Siblings, parents and relatives. Where are they? What do they do for a living?
-Grandparents- well, they're circling above Capri at the moment...
-"Why Syria? I mean, weren't you scared to go there?"
"Well, no, I wasn't scared. It's full of Europeans. It's a shame that the relations with the US can't be better. The architectural sites are incredible, it was an amazing trip."
-Where are your stamps? How did you get an Italian passport? Um...I am Italian (?)
I have to say at that point I had no idea what to expect. But the official actually was extremely professional and polite. And when she 'semi'- apologized for the intrusiveness of the questions I felt had passed the sanity test (for her at least- :-) )
My view is that part of the rudeness at US Immigration stems from a mix of a) a very common American trait of ignorance (and the consequent insular view) of the world b) when it comes to US citizens if you're even slightly different from their world they're familiar with they're resentful and c) (don't get me going) the riff-raff, blind and institutionalized acceptance of the "war on terror" which has instilled indiscriminate fear in the eyes of officials. To understand that visitors bring $$$ or better still Euros or Pounds or Yuan is far beyond their understanding. Their best training would be a month-long English-only tour of France followed by the Middle East, India and a few market days in Laos and China...
The Economist recently summed it up quite well. What American intelligence has in terms of electronic intelligence it lacks in human intelligence. The ability to accurately "size someone up" is pathetic.
As the US becomes more and more stratified, and its citizenry more and more influenced by powerful media groups that provide controlled information, the more alienating we become as a country.
If my life were in Europe I'm sad to say I'm not sure I'd want to come to the US now. For what? To be fingerprinted, photographed and now questioned via internet in advance??
Sad to believe these attitudes--or practices-- won't be addressed any time soon. It's a shame because the US could stand to gain and not squander whatever is left of its good will.
Last edited by bostontraveler; Aug 19, 08 at 9:42 pm..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Landing Gear
I have never had any problem whatsoever with Immigration despite the fact that someone with the same name and birthday is on the "watch list." In fact, no matter how awful a flight might have been, I know I can look forward to a friendly greeting of "welcome home" when I get to the head of the line.
Good for you. Don't forget to wear your golden star on your forehead for good behavior. My own experience is mixed. Most times it is in a range of friendly ("welcome home") to indifferent/passive-agressive (no words exchanged, brusque manners), and sometimes it is onwards to what Mrs. Pickles calls "El Cuarto de Drogas", which is what the article posted by the OP describes to a T, down to the neanderthal picking his molars and generally behaving like the prison guard he would like to be.
For the next two hours first it was Bubba the Vietnam vet and Mikey the guy from Southie- clearly resentful that I had the opportunity to travel.
My view is that part of their best training would be a month-long English-only tour of France followed by the Middle East, India and a few market days in Laos and China...
Well said. More and more I view the ICE agents as cubicle bound desk jockies who probably have never gone anywhere and are resentful of seeing 300 people per landing who can jet all over the world. That alone gives them a negative attitude toward everyone they deal with, including returning US citizens like me.
At a cost of $5000 or so per agent, a fraction of what is spent on training anyway, sending every agent on a 1 week TATL or TPAC 5 country trip to meet their counterparts as a customer and experience being on the other side of the glass window would really be money well spent. They would also learn why their customers all have that sleepy jetlagged expression.
Experience and FT postings have made me even more careful to not tick off the ICE guy, since I learned that with one pen stroke he can make the next guy at the Customs desk give you a hard time. However recently I picked the shortest and fastest line, even though manned by a 23 year old with the bad 1/8 inch haircut and looking exactly like what Central Casting would send over if you ordered a "typical Bubba cop/prison guard with an attitude." To see if he broke the stereotype. (Sigh, not this time.)
ICE: What was the purpose of your trip?
Me: I'm burning up my NW frequent flyer miles before Delta takes them over and the miles become worthless.
ICE: Oh, do frequent flyer programs still exist?
From his tone I determined he was not "BDO testing" me, he really sounded like he was clueless to the existence of FF programs. It struck me that at his age and pay he may never have flown international, or had a FF account. Yet here he has a job interacting with a thousand people a day who do.
For an instant I thought about "tempting Gitmo" as I REALLY wanted to reply:
"I am surprised to find you seem to know so little about the airline and travel industry, which as a ICE agent you are a part of. I would not expect you to be an expert on FF programs, but I would expect you to have at least a passing familiarity with them, as I cannot be the first NW FF ticket passenger you have ever seen, considering YOU'RE SITTING HERE IN THE BASEMENT OF THE FREAKING NORTHWEST WORLD GATEWAY HUB IN DETROIT!"
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This, apparently, happens every day. Would it be so difficult to;
- provide access to lavatories?
- provide basic (but not specific) information why they may 'be there'. i.e. "You are here because we have reason to ask you additional questions before you can proceed".
- give a estimate of how long the process will take - "We expect you will be here for one/two/three/whatever hours. We will do what we can to expedite this, but this will take some time"
- provide water (tap water) free
- provide access to food and non-alcholic drink
- remove the weapons (is there really a need for these? Other than to intimidate. This is a secure / sterile area).
- give everyone a number (which can be shown on a screen / flipchart / blackboard) to overcome mispronounced names.
I have had 'challenges' at US airports, but nothing like this. But once at Denver I had:
ICE: Where is your visa?
Me: I'm Canadian I don't need a visa.
ICE: (screaming) DONT TELL ME MY JOB!!! COME WITH ME.
Off I went to secondary to wait over an hour. My interview consisted of;
ICE: Why are you here?
Me: They say I need a visa, which I don't have.
ICE: You're Canadian, you don't need a visa.
Me: (gobsmacked silence)
ICE: Here's your passport, have a nice day.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaflyer
Well said. More and more I view the ICE agents as cubicle bound desk jockies who probably have never gone anywhere and are resentful of seeing 300 people per landing who can jet all over the world. That alone gives them a negative attitude toward everyone they deal with, including returning US citizens like me.
Mark this as the elitist post of the day. What makes you assume that ICE officers would travel more or less than the rest of the flying public? I would venture to say that there are many people on this board in all sorts of occupations, ranging from low to high on the pay scale, who travel because they enjoy it. If you are enjoying the stereotype that every ICE agent you meet is an uneducated goon who works the border checkpoints merely to harass people that you believe they 'resent', I think that you have quite the warped view of reality. (No, I am not an ICE agent).
I don't enter or leave the US through JFK, and I shall continue to avoid it whenever possible. Such a big fuss was made over the new Airbus 380 now flying DXB-JFK. Won't do well for long if DHS is going to harass every brown person getting off the plane.
:shudder: DePortland debacle redux.
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This, apparently, happens every day. Would it be so difficult to;
- provide access to lavatories?
- provide basic (but not specific) information why they may 'be there'. i.e. "You are here because we have reason to ask you additional questions before you can proceed".
- give a estimate of how long the process will take - "We expect you will be here for one/two/three/whatever hours. We will do what we can to expedite this, but this will take some time"
- provide water (tap water) free
- provide access to food and non-alcholic drink
- remove the weapons (is there really a need for these? Other than to intimidate. This is a secure / sterile area).
- give everyone a number (which can be shown on a screen / flipchart / blackboard) to overcome mispronounced names.
I think those are all good suggestions. The only one I would take issue with is removing weapons. The area isn't really secure. In many airports, there are tons of airport employees roaming around who haven't been screened. Additionally, the officers sometimes bring in passengers' family members from outside if necessary and don't always search them first. Finally, you have to remember that the officers have to handle large amounts of seized narcotics and currency. Doing so unarmed is a little disconcerting, to say the least.
By the way people...please stop referring to the border officers as ICE employees. They work for CBP. Totally different agency.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC8-41
This, apparently, happens every day. Would it be so difficult to;
- provide access to lavatories?
- provide basic (but not specific) information why they may 'be there'. i.e. "You are here because we have reason to ask you additional questions before you can proceed".
- give a estimate of how long the process will take - "We expect you will be here for one/two/three/whatever hours. We will do what we can to expedite this, but this will take some time"
- provide water (tap water) free
- provide access to food and non-alcholic drink
- remove the weapons (is there really a need for these? Other than to intimidate. This is a secure / sterile area).
- give everyone a number (which can be shown on a screen / flipchart / blackboard) to overcome mispronounced names.
I agree, except that CBP officers are sworn Law Enforcement Officers. They are required, by law, to be armed while on the job. While the risk of something happening inside a secure arrivals area is very slight, I think it's still part of their "image."
Well said. More and more I view the ICE agents as cubicle bound desk jockies who probably have never gone anywhere and are resentful of seeing 300 people per landing who can jet all over the world. That alone gives them a negative attitude toward everyone they deal with, including returning US citizens like me. 
