Any post that states a Constitutional right followed by 'however' shows a grave misunderstanding of constitutional rights. No one is in any way 'inconvenienced' by a message on somebody's T-shirt. When did I lose my right to free speech and you gain a right to convenience?!
I don't have a grave misunderstanding of the constitution, but I don't know if that was directed at me or not. When I get onboard my first responsibility is to the safety of everybody on board. That is 150 totally different personalities and 150 different ways people react when faced with something out of the norm. Like I stated, I personally don't care what you wear on board an airplane, but remember I have a duty to make sure everybody is safe and comfortable. That t-shirt , no matter what the intention was, will cause a problem with many of the flying public. They are going to become frightened, upset, and will prolly start some trouble once we get up in the air where it is to late. Remember a person is smart but people are dumb, panicky, and susceptable to influence.
I do understand your comment though and I agree with it. I mistated in my original post but corrected it in the second and I hope this clearly states my position. If I was on personal travel and not working the flight in any way I wouldn't be worried in the least if I saw that onboard. We are face-to-face with customers on a daily basis and it get's pretty easy to see who may cause a problem (drunk, drugged, pissed off). I'm looking at this from a safety stand point because that's where I would be confronted with the decision.
__________________
comments by JetBlueFA are his Opinions.
They are NOT the Views or Policy of JetBlue Airways
Moderator: Travel Technology, Travel Photography and JetBlue
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 29,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBlueFA
where there is tons of security, overanxious TSA and Police Officers
This is my favorite part of your arguement. Since everyone else is overreacting you have to as well.
Rather than trying to explain to the 150 other passengers that you expect to become upset that there is actually no security risk and that the person has passed the TSA checkpoint just like they did and that there is no risk of problems, you would choose to revert to the lowest common denominator, which is to assume the worst of your passengers and of the "instigator."
Thank you for protecting all of our safety
And I'll suggest again that this thread make a bee-line to the TSS forum. For one thing it'll be way more entertaining to read the responses that roll in with the added visibility, and for another it really is a TSS issue, not a JetBlue issue.
What difference does it make now that he changed his t-shirt? Everyone still saw him wearing it originally. Just because he covered it before boarding the a/c, does that make him less of a "threat"? Either deny boarding or don't, but if he's gonna get on the plane, don't stifle his free speech. There are no if's and's or but's when it comes to our Constitutional rights.
Please do not take this as an attack towards JetBlue (as I'm sure my airline of choice would've handled the situation in a similar manner), but rather the state of our country and the industry in general.
Programs: jetBlue TrueBlue, Starwood Preferred Guest, Hertz #1 Club Gold
Posts: 1,905
Legal rights aside, anyone who thinks that wearing this shirt was good judgement by the man, should rethink this. So, if the majority of people are ignorant, so be it. Fact is you can't change all those people. I'm not saying they should be ignorant - but they have a right to be ignorant if they choose! Just like that guy has a right to wear the t-shirt. Freedom of expression people, remember?
Additionally, any carrier would have handled this situation the same way. JetBlue is a business and has a legal binding contract with its customers - the Contract of Carriage. The company has the right to deny boarding to ANY passenger for ANY reason. This was a good enough reason.
Ever watch Airline? Southwest denies boarding to people who "smell" due to the odor negatively affecting the smelling sense of others on the flight. Well, this t-shirt negatively affected the sight/vision sense of others on the flight. Like pretty much all of you here, I've flown with people of all ethnicities and backgrounds, including Arabic...many, many times since 9/11. Not once do I think twice about the safety of boarding that aircraft. As mentioned earlier, not all Arabs are terrorists. I agree 100%. But I will repeat that in THIS world - not yesterday (pre-9/11) people are on the edge and have every right to be. Wearing that shirt is NOT in best judgement and it is sure to draw reaction from others. Plain and simple.
__________________ HAPPY JETTING! Posts by jetBlueNYFL are not representative of the official views and/or opinions of JetBlue Airways.
I guess I'd want to know how he interpreted the "We will not be silent" on his t-shirt. If he meant it to say that he would speak out against Muslim injustices than I have no problem with it.
If he was referring to speaking out against American involvement in the Middle East, it would probably make me at least angry since I feel that WASPs get the blame for all that's wrong in the Middle East and Africa and those native to the area ignore their own violent history and current events.
That all this took place without an open dialog between those passengers/staff who were uncomfortable, the TSA and the passenger, shows the world will continue to go to he** in a handbasket. The lessons learned by those observing the event?
1. It is good to speak up and express concerns about quiet Arabs. They continue to be a danger (this can be concluded because no one told me I was overreacting.)
2. He was guilty of something (this is concluded because he was singled out and 'neutralize' by being made to change his shirt.)
3. Even after going through the 'security' checkpoint, anyone can be a threat (again because something was done to the guy),
4. No one needs to hear the views of a newly minted American, someone whose viewpoint might enlighten me if I was given a chance to be enlightened. (Since he was silenced.)
I'm glad he's suing. He's probably already on a watch list, so he has nothing to lose.
Excellent. I have met Jarrar and encouraged him to sue, but he seemed non-commital about it. I've also talked to JetBlue about and they entirely blame the TSA, but obviously the TSA couldn't force JetBlue to give himn a new seat assignment, which is something I ddn't know about until I read the article you linked to. I think I'll be wearing an Arabic t-shirt every time I go through JFK in the future. I suggest everyone else do the same and telephone TSA's JFK operations centre at +17189173810 to inform you plan to do so.
Moderator: Travel Technology, Travel Photography and JetBlue
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 29,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetBlueNYFL
Legal rights aside,
Why should anyone be putting their legal rights aside? Or are you suggesting that now that someone staged a(nother) terrorist incident on US soil that habeas corpus is an quaint, antiquated ideal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetBlueNYFL
people are on the edge and have every right to be.
They sure do. They also have the right to NOT FLY. If they are made uncomfortable they have the right to not fly. They also have the right to look away or change the station on their radio/tv if they don't like the content. Sadly, they choose to harass/bully their way through things, projecting their views onto others rather than shutting up and moving on.
The proble is that if a bunch of people said to JetBlue that they were uncomfortable flying and wanted to switch flights to one without an arab on it JetBlue would have all sorts of scheduling issues, so they did their best to accomoodate everyone. And in doing so they violated this man's rights. Sad, but true.
The post-9/11 world isn't so much different than the pre-9/11 world, except that the US has gone out of its way to make people hate us more than they used to. One event should not be used to justify wholesale ignorance and/or suspension of civil rights.
Programs: jetBlue TrueBlue, Starwood Preferred Guest, Hertz #1 Club Gold
Posts: 1,905
sbm12, I'm sorry but I think all the points I've made flew right over your head.
You're right...people have the right not to fly. But that is not realistic. People choose to fly because they can. Flying is safe, fast and affordable. Flying connects people together for business, pleasure and to be with family. When people fly, or in any public place, they have the right to feel safe. Sure, nothing that terrible appears on the t-shirt, but as mentioned before we live in a different world today. It's NOT the Arabic writing. It is the phrase that it translates to.
I'm not "putting legal rights aside"...I said that in order to bring out a very strong point. That point being that what's LEGAL and using good JUDGEMENT are two different things.
Not an apples-apples comparison, but if I wore a NY Yankees shirt to Fenway park at a Red Sox game, is that legal? You sure bet it is. Would it be good judgement? No, not at all. Same CONCEPT here...is wearing the shirt legal? Yes. Good judgement? No. Is the decision of jetBlue and the TSA to make him change the shirt legal? YES! They have the right to do so. If they feel it is grounds to even start a small altercation once airborne, then yes. It's not a "threat"
__________________ HAPPY JETTING! Posts by jetBlueNYFL are not representative of the official views and/or opinions of JetBlue Airways.
Location: West Hartford, CT USA via Stamford, CT; South Bend, IN; London, U.K. and Westchester County, NY
Programs: AA EXP 2 MM; Starwood PLT
Posts: 12,647
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetBlueNYFL
It's NOT the Arabic writing. It is the phrase that it translates to.
Except that the very people who are most likely to react negatively to the t-shirt are the same people who are most unlikely to understand what it says. In other words, what causes them to react is not what it says, but the fact that it is in Arabic.
Programs: NWA Platinum, HHonors Diamond, SPG, YX, AA
Posts: 6,032
Isn't terrorism defined as "Government though intimidation?"
From the above website: "...Although Jarrar successfully cleared two security checkpoints, he was approached by Inspector Harris while waiting at the boarding gate...Jarrar attempted to assert his constitutional right to wear the t-shirt, but became intimidated after he was surrounded by Harris and several JetBlue officials"
Moderator: Travel Technology, Travel Photography and JetBlue
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 29,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetBlueNYFL
Not an apples-apples comparison, but if I wore a NY Yankees shirt to Fenway park at a Red Sox game, is that legal? You sure bet it is. Would it be good judgement? No, not at all.
So you've never been to Fenway for a Red Sox-Yankees game, I guess, huh? People do it all the time, and there is no problem with it. Sure, there is some back and forth ribbing between the fans, but it happens and no one calls the cops and asks them to remove the Yankee fan from the staduim because it makes them uncomfortable. Heck, the guy who caught Barry's 756 ball was wearing a Mets jersey in San Francisco and he didn't get evicted.
Plus, I disagree with your assertion that it is bad judgement, as I don't think it appropriate to change my behavior based on the lowest common denominator. The pax didn't wear a shirt saying "I'm like crashinig planes" or something actually offensive. That's why the ovevrreaction of the other pax, the TSA and JetBlue is so unfortunate.
IANAL, and I don't think you are either, so we'll have to let that crowd figure out if it was actually legal or not, but in the mean time I'm actually considering trying to find a similar shirt to wear. I'm not arabic, but I have a pretty good tan, and I'd be interested to see the effect I could inspire.
To your point of people having the right to feel safe, I disagree. People have the right to BE safe. Stopping people from bringing weapons onto planes does that. Stopping people from brining 8 ounces of shampoo onto planes does not. Stopping people from attacking flight crews makes people safe. Having passengers change their clothes does not. What you are supporting is a facade of safety to make folks "feel better" while actually doing nothing to actually make air travel safer. Just imagine if more money was spent screening cargo instead of toiletries. There might be some real safety net positive effect. Instead we have Kip Hawley and his minions coming up with rules that have very little basis in fact.
Nothing went over my head in your posts. I just happen to disagree rather strongly with your point of view. I have some rights, and I'll be dam*ed if I am going to give any of them up because some idiot thinks that a bomb can be concoted from 6 ounces of shampoo and 4 ounces of bath gel, combined with a t-shirt that has arabic writing on it.
Programs: jetBlue TrueBlue, Starwood Preferred Guest, Hertz #1 Club Gold
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by PresRDC
Except that the very people who are most likely to react negatively to the t-shirt are the same people who are most unlikely to understand what it says. In other words, what causes them to react is not what it says, but the fact that it is in Arabic.
"We will not be silent" is not a comforting phrase in ANY language. It's sending a message that the person/party advertising that slogan on their shirt is upset with something and want everyone else to see that message. Whatever the phrase is referring to (and quite frankly, I don't know and I don't care), it's ok for it to be on a shirt...but it's very poor judgement to wear that shirt in an airport. The fact that it's in Arabic does NOT get to me, as I have said before. I know the difference between hard-working, innocent Arabic people such as this man and the radical terrorists. Just because these two unqiue types share a similar language does not give me or anyone the right to identify all Arabs as terrorists.
Understanding what it says is NOT the responsibility of all the other people. It's a shirt that was obviously created with VERY little information to share with others in mind. It's a very "insider" shirt, in that it does not say what exactly they will not be silent about.
__________________ HAPPY JETTING! Posts by jetBlueNYFL are not representative of the official views and/or opinions of JetBlue Airways.
Programs: jetBlue TrueBlue, Starwood Preferred Guest, Hertz #1 Club Gold
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbm12
So you've never been to Fenway for a Red Sox-Yankees game, I guess, huh? People do it all the time, and there is no problem with it. Sure, there is some back and forth ribbing between the fans, but it happens and no one calls the cops and asks them to remove the Yankee fan from the staduim because it makes them uncomfortable. Heck, the guy who caught Barry's 756 ball was wearing a Mets jersey in San Francisco and he didn't get evicted.
Yes, I have been to Yanks/Red Sox games. Probably different ones than you because I have seen many punches thrown between fans. Wearing a Yankees jersey to Fenway or a Red Sox jersey to Yankee Stadium is most definitely 100% legal...it's also instigating others to get mad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbm12
To your point of people having the right to feel safe, I disagree. People have the right to BE safe. Stopping people from bringing weapons onto planes does that. Stopping people from brining 8 ounces of shampoo onto planes does not. Stopping people from attacking flight crews makes people safe. Having passengers change their clothes does not. What you are supporting is a facade of safety to make folks "feel better" while actually doing nothing to actually make air travel safer. Just imagine if more money was spent screening cargo instead of toiletries. There might be some real safety net positive effect. Instead we have Kip Hawley and his minions coming up with rules that have very little basis in fact.
I agree with you to an extent. But, inorder to BE safe, we must first FEEL safe. It's like BEING happy...you must FEEL happy to. The average person does not FEEL safe seeing a shirt like that in an airport about to board an airplane in this world. So, how can they know they ARE safe?
__________________ HAPPY JETTING! Posts by jetBlueNYFL are not representative of the official views and/or opinions of JetBlue Airways.
. Nighthawks fans are everywhere
