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Shortage of pilot candidates puts a drag on regional carriers

Shortage of pilot candidates puts a drag on regional carriers

Old Apr 21, 2014, 2:45 am
  #16  
 
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Anyone know where the 1,500 hours number comes from?

I know the Air Colgan crash spurred the recent reform/rules, but both pilots experience was not a factor, from straight hours anyway (Pilot had 3,200 & Co-pilot had 2,200 hours).
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 6:15 am
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Originally Posted by deadinabsentia
The issue is the regional carriers aren't paying. Period.
The regional carriers are paying what they can afford. With the ever increasing pressure for low fares they just won't be in business if they increase prices.
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 8:28 am
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Originally Posted by ft101
The regional carriers are paying what they can afford. With the ever increasing pressure for low fares they just won't be in business if they increase prices.
That is always an option. A business that is unable to generate enough revenue to cover the costs of doing business shouldn't stay in business. Something got to give.
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 10:38 am
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Originally Posted by ft101
The regional carriers are paying what they can afford. With the ever increasing pressure for low fares they just won't be in business if they increase prices.
Fares are rising, not falling, and the profits are going into managements' and investors' pockets, not toward more attractive wages. The regional carriers "just won't be in business" if there's too few willing to fly the planes.
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 11:48 am
  #20  
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Originally Posted by planemechanic
There isn't really a shortage of pilots, there is a shortage of airlines willing to pay a fair wage for the skill base required to be a pilot a make a living. Raise those wages and 10s of thousands of people will line up for the job.
And a shortage of consumers who are willing to pay the full cost of airline travel...
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 3:58 pm
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Originally Posted by ft101
The regional carriers are paying what they can afford. With the ever increasing pressure for low fares they just won't be in business if they increase prices.
Um, what? Fares are increasing, not decreasing.
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 6:15 pm
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Originally Posted by Delta Hog
Um, what? Fares are increasing, not decreasing.
Regionals don't benefit from fare increases. They are contracted by the mainline airline at a negotiated rate.
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 6:26 pm
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Originally Posted by DanielW
Anyone know where the 1,500 hours number comes from?

I know the Air Colgan crash spurred the recent reform/rules, but both pilots experience was not a factor, from straight hours anyway (Pilot had 3,200 & Co-pilot had 2,200 hours).
1500 hours is the minimum amount of time a pilot needs to have to earn a ATP (airline transport pilot) certificate. All captains are required to have this rating. Copilot did not need a ATP to pilot until this new regulation. Now copilots are required to have the same hour requirement as captains to fly for a 121 airline. Problem is, its very hard to fill the gap in hours from earning your commercial certificate at 250 hours to 1500 hours. Flight instructing is the most common way to build time. In the past decade it wasn't uncommon to get hired with 500+ hours at an airline. We are the only country in the world that requires this high amount of time to fly for an airline. Congress will need to amend this law or the mainline carriers will need to pick up a lot of this flying to fill in the gap at the regional level.

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic.../2120-AJ67.pdf
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 7:12 pm
  #24  
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Originally Posted by deadinabsentia
The issue is the regional carriers aren't paying. Period.
The issue is that Americans are not paying enough to make airlines profitable enough on a long term basis to pay them more. It was fine under regulation when they competed on service, with fixed income then it became ever lower income for increasing overhead.

ALL legacies were saddled with union pay scales and went under. SW was not a legacy when the deregulation started and so has been profitable so far.
Pan AM, TWA, Braniff, Eastern, CO, UA, AA, DL and NW, US all have gone under and either resurfaced or stayed down.

The problems with airline unions is that they cater to their entrenched members at the expense of long term growth.
That is why these companies go bankrupt to avoid this and do a reset.
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 7:13 pm
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Originally Posted by formeraa
And a shortage of consumers who are willing to pay the full cost of airline travel...
+1
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 7:24 pm
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Originally Posted by nwa330
After 3-4 years of making subpar wages you might get upgraded to captain making 60-80. Not a very good investment when you could invest that same amount of time becoming a DR or attorney. Or just 4 years of engineering.
I do not think the others are any better.
As an MD, you have to pay for 4 yrs of college (-200k) then work for 3 yrs residency minimum (30k while working 80hrs a week = 4000 hrs / yr) do a fellowship then if you want a specialty (30k for 3 -4 more years)
As a lawyer, it seems that 60% of lawyers work as non lawyers and cannot get jobs in their field.
I think all jobs as we knew it will tend to pay less with less benefits over time
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 9:12 pm
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Then a pilot goes to school for 4 years then flight school for 1 year and the instructs for 2. 7 years 150k-200k and you know you'll end up with a job of 25k(for 80 hours a week+). At least a lawyer or DR you has more upside then the guarantee of 25k. 4 year of engineering degree will pay you more then flying and has more demand. Here's the kicker, if you don't like your job and change companies you start at the bottom of the pay scale unlike a Dr or Lawyer. You can try to dress it up, but it's ugly. The reason most do it is passion. It's one of the hardest professions because of stress and living in a hotel most your life. If you want to read a pilot forum try airlinepilotcentral.com. You will see how upset and all the fighting that goes on. Read the "regional" section and see how guys talk about food stamps.

airlinepilotcentral.com
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 9:24 pm
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History

In 1988 I was a tenured professor at a large State University. I was instructing for the University Flying Club and flying part time for the local commuter airline (A Braniff Express Commuter). I had an ATP and over 3000 hours. I was tired of the academic routine. At the time I had the opportunity to return to industry for essentially double my University salary or move to a commuter airline for peanuts. I loved flying, owned a Great Lakes 2T1A2, and would have gone aviation had there been any assurance it would provide an education for my two kids and a reasonable retirement for me. Industry could provide both, all I had to do was perform. I went back to industry, performed, and now two years into retirement I can with great assurance say that from a family standpoint I made the right choice. I really miss flying, it might have been a great career but those two litlel kids made the choice obvious.
You want good pilots? Pay them appropriately in the early years of their careers, not just in the last ten years of the career and only if they have survived assorted furlough's and other turmoil.
In retirement I work maybe ten weeks a year as a consultant and make significantly more than a new hire airline second officer does in a year. That makes very little sense to me.
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 10:38 pm
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^ Thats the problem flying, only pay those las 10 years if you ever get there. With bk and mergers some guy may never get to the top of the listed to enjoy it. I started my flying down the road at flying cloud.
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 11:47 pm
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Eventually (hopefully … and soon) there will be a tipping point. The sheer number of delayed and cancelled Express flights isn't good for any mainline carrier's business.

Does anybody know if there is a breakdown of cancelled & delayed flights along the lines of Mainline vs Express flights with a further breakdown by the various express carriers? I'd be curious to see if there is any correlation between the number of cancelled & delayed flights on a particular express carrier and how much the crews are paid. I realize there are a lot of variables (# of planes & flights operated by the Exs, etc) and I'm not a statistician so it could be complicated. Pretty sure it would be impossible to pinpoint the actual (real) reason for any delays or cancellations. We all know the excuses change by the minute. Late crew arrival; maintenance; customer service; air traffic control; weather; etc were all used during one recent flight delay.

On a related note, I think that (correct me if I'm wrong) the Ex carriers get paid a flat rate ($xx,000) for each flight they operate whether its on time or hours late. No penalty for lateness. However, they don't get paid if the fight is cancelled. Not sure what the parameters are. There is a way around this pesky detail. One of my friends is a pilot with a major US carrier. One night he was commuting from the east coast to DTW. The Ex flight had rolling delays. Eventually the agent said the flight was cancelled and sent the pax to another carrier. The pilots told my friend to stand by. After the other carrier's flight had departed the original flight was reinstated. My friend had the cabin to himself. The pilots told him that because the flight did operate the company would still be paid (whether or not there were pax).
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