Two recent vignettes as we return from our most recent visit to Europe somewhat relevant to this thread...
A half dozen young Germans singing loudly and talking very rudely in their native language on a bus along the Amalfi Coast. When one of them said to his friends, "It's lucky nobody understands German," Mrs. Fredd was tempted to explain that she at least could and reprimand them (her retired teacher instincts) but refrained. They were quite young and more silly than awful.
We were waiting at a bus stop nearby St. Tropez. It was recommended by a waitress at the restaurant where we'd stopped for a beer after a long and hot hike on a sentier. I returned to the restaurant, said "bon jour," and asked the owner/manager in my few words of French if he could assist. When he answered in rapid French I asked "Parlez-vous anglais?" He replied to me in rapid and clearly rude French - all I could pick out was that he was an "immigrant." An English-speaking waiter standing next to him was a little nicer.
Sometimes you can't win for losing.
Oh, and our experiences otherwise in a variety of countries were just great.
I've come to the conclusion (especially after two sleepless nights) that almost any large group of young persons whatever nationality are generally uncaring and inconsiderate towards others. This time it was Mexicans on a Quinceañera holiday pushing people, running down hallways, shouting after 4am etc. But recently it was American teenagers building a cheerleading pyramid in one of the great cathedrals of the world, during service. I'm not Catholic, but was trying to worship, and left in tears after that episode of complete disregard for others.
Chollie, interesting what you said about nuances. I think that is why the French are sometimes seen a prickly. There is a ritual to the transaction which includes a greeting before the transaction begins. Approaching the counter and launching into 'Gimmie two of them' does not endear one to people expecting a greeting first. It is similar to the German habit of calling out a greeting when entering and exiting a shop. Americans look at me very oddly indeed when I do that out of habit (although I don't call out 'greet God!' in English )
I do try and adapt as much as possible, but admit that sometimes I become confused. I've been in four countries in two days using four of my languages, and am frankly certain that somewhere along the way I offended someone unintentionally.
I've come to the conclusion (especially after two sleepless nights) that almost any large group of young persons whatever nationality are generally uncaring and inconsiderate towards others. This time it was Mexicans on a Quinceañera holiday pushing people, running down hallways, shouting after 4am etc. But recently it was American teenagers building a cheerleading pyramid in one of the great cathedrals of the world, during service. I'm not Catholic, but was trying to worship, and left in tears after that episode of complete disregard for others.
Chollie, interesting what you said about nuances. I think that is why the French are sometimes seen a prickly. There is a ritual to the transaction which includes a greeting before the transaction begins. Approaching the counter and launching into 'Gimmie two of them' does not endear one to people expecting a greeting first. It is similar to the German habit of calling out a greeting when entering and exiting a shop. Americans look at me very oddly indeed when I do that out of habit (although I don't call out 'greet God!' in English )
I do try and adapt as much as possible, but admit that sometimes I become confused. I've been in four countries in two days using four of my languages, and am frankly certain that somewhere along the way I offended someone unintentionally.
What you witnessed during the church service appalls me, but I've seen it myself. The same type of tourist would be furious if the church started closing to outsiders during services, of course. In Sri Lanka we were told that tourists were almost permanently banned from a particular Buddhist site. Lots of statues of Buddha, including a main one of a sitting Buddha. A tourist got the clever idea to climb in the Buddha's lap to get her picture taken.
Some of these folks show less respect for worshipers than they would to fellow patrons at a movie theater.
I wonder how that same tourist would have reacted if, for example, someone climbed up on the altar in her church and put his/her arm around the crucifix?
I almost mentioned 'shop etiquette' in my post! Some of the most interesting and informative conversations I have had have been with shopkeepers! It's such a small thing, and requires such a small knowledge of the language: 'hello' when you walk in, 'thank you' or similar when you leave. Much more civil than acting like the shopkeeper is a piece of the furniture.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exbayern
I've come to the conclusion (especially after two sleepless nights) that almost any large group of young persons whatever nationality are generally uncaring and inconsiderate towards others...
Oh indeed. Mrs. Fredd and I individually and collectively took young people on many field trips in a variety of places before retirement. We always prepared them in advance about behavior and etiquette. With very few exceptions, they lived up to our expectations, and we were always there to provide direction (as UA FAs say as part of the warning only to use the lavatories in one's ticketed cabin ).
Our background as educators is why my assessment of the young Germans' behavior noted above as "silly" but not "awful" was a "professional" opinion.
Once we were at one of the big geysers in Yellowstone and somebody asked a ranger, "Are they supposed to be over there?", pointing out some young French tourists not only off the boardwalks but literally standing at the edge of the geyser peering down into it.
The ranger yelled at them and directed them back. An outraged American went off over to them and said, "How would you like it if we stood on the Eiffel Tower?"
Quote:
...There is a ritual to the transaction which includes a greeting before the transaction begins...
That's something I try to pass along to folks who are making their first trip abroad. How jarring it could be - and how rude it must seem - to have somebody start a conversation in a foreign language (e.g. English) without so much as a greeting or a polite "Do you speak English?"
That's something I try to pass along to folks who are making their first trip abroad. How jarring it could be - and how rude it must seem - to have somebody start a conversation in a foreign language (e.g. English) without so much as a greeting or a polite "Do you speak English?"
I try and explain that to people as well; would they like it if I walked up to them on a street in America and demanded in German for directions, without even an attempt at 'hello' or 'excuse me, I don't speak English'? It's especially frustrating to read on Disney message boards people who get upset when others are 'talkin' furrin' ' on the bus at Disney parks in the US, but who refuse to think that they in turn should learn a few words of local language when they travel in Europe.
chollie, I once was in Thailand and in a temple with a tour guide, who explained why turning ones feet towards Buddha was offensive. She had to correct a man several times and was almost in tears after repeatedly asking him to sit in a different pose. I felt so bad for her.
And it isn't about MY faith; it is about respecting the faith of others, as you note. That is why I don't take photos inside places of worship, and dress appropriately, even if it isn't my particular faith.
I read so often that it is perfectly fine to wear shorts/tank tops even when requested not to do so in certain places of worship around the world. I'm pleased to see recently in Italy and Germany that people are being turned away, or asked to leave, for their attire and their behaviour. I've seen many people denied entry to the Kölner Dom in the past year, and in Padova I heard someone tell a group of tourists 'next photo - OUT!'
A Russian colleague says that the worst tourists are.... Russians. But she also pointed out the numbers impact our perceptions. There are a large number of Russians who are travelling in certain areas of Europe right now, but they are actually a tiny fraction of the overall population, and most of them cannot afford to travel, and not in that style. The same holds true for Americans, I believe. We read here that most do not travel outside the US, but they do tend to be in large numbers in certain areas of the world, and thus the chances of encountering badly behaved ones increases in those areas simply due to the numbers.
There are for instance badly behaved Norwegian tourists, but how often does one encounter a Norwegian tourist in the world compared to other nationalities?
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It does not matter where they are from, but the retired crowd is the worst. Or the kettle crowd that does not want to pay more than $.50 a ticket yet still expect the service of the 60s and 70s. Does not matter where they are from, these groups are the worst.
It does not matter where they are from, but the retired crowd is the worst. Or the kettle crowd that does not want to pay more than $.50 a ticket yet still expect the service of the 60s and 70s. Does not matter where they are from, these groups are the worst.
Certainly there's a subset of older Americans who can be a pain - the ones who grew up/matured during the Cold War. The world was a much smaller place then and if you criticized something about the US, it was not uncommon to be told "Then why don't you go live in Russia?" or "So, it's not great. Would you rather live in Russia?' It was patently ridiculous - I remember thinking, even as a small child, 'what about all the other countries?' Many of that post-WWII generation grew up with a profound sense of American exceptionalism - and their limited experience and knowledge of other countries did nothing to educate them more thoroughly. Perhaps the most travelled people (middle/working class) at the time were servicemen - who came back with ugly stories about life in Japan or the Phillippines or Korea.
These folks do tend to go abroad almost like they go to a zoo - to get a taste of 'strange' ("The French women don't shave their armpits, you can't get a decent hamburger, nobody speaks English and OMG...the toilets!"). Because they grew up at a time when you almost imbibed a sense of 'American exceptionalism' with your mother's milk, they are inclined to be judgmental - they know before they ever leave the country that the US is indisputably the best at everything and it can be difficult to convince them otherwise.
I think (hope) going forward that the younger generation will be a bit better, just because society as a whole is getting more 'global'. When I was very young, once in a while you met someone with a penpal from overseas. The amount of readily available information just wasn't there.
Last edited by chollie; Jul 26, 12 at 6:59 pm..
Reason: spelling
When we were stationed in Germany back in the 60s, I learned at a young age how to behave and be treated with respect in other countries. We were visiting the city of Worms one afternoon and were in the city's museum. There was a loudmouthed American woman with a bad attitude just kept getting louder because the German at the museum information desk was not answering her rude request. My dad interceded, and using the German he had picked up so far from our neighbors and the language class he attended on base, asked the man what the lady had been asking. The German smiled and answered in English.
Dad then reprimanded the lady and told her that if she would converse in normal tones, she would find her time in Germany much more pleasant. He also recommended that she try and learn a little German.
Every country has their bad apples that act rude while they are abroad, or at home. As a resident of a state who's primary industry is tourism, I can confirm that.
Last edited by ExitRowOrElse; Jul 29, 12 at 7:39 am..
Russians, Israeli's, and Italians I have noticed to be the worst. If someone is pushing you to get off a plane first, they're most likely Russian. If people are arguing out loud yelling at each other in public, they're Israeli. If someone is cutting in line, they're Italian.
I've said before that I am not nationalistic and am not generally loyal to my country of origin so hope that the below does not offend those who are...
Posted (by an American) elsewhere on the interweb (profanity removed):
Quote:
We went out last night to get something to eat and drink at a classy pub. Well there was a huge group of Americans there screaming and yelling "USA USA USA". One broke a chair and someone else threw up all over the ground. Finally the police came and removed them. Also, while walking around this morning, we saw a group of americans screaming "USA #1, everyone else .. sucks" right in front of kids. A few volunteers asked them to keep it down and they told them to "shut the up".
Every country has its version of football hooligans, but this brings to mind a story I was told over the weekend by a couple who were in Finland at a junior sporting match for a rather low key sport. People kept moving into their seating section during the day, and when asked what the issue was in the other section several said that they were tired of the 'USAUSAUSA' chanting and general boorish nationalistic behaviour demeaning other countries.
Unfortunately, it is something which I do hear and I rarely attend sporting events (that wouldn't be tolerated at equestrian events). I hear it on the streets, or in restaurants, or other public areas. I'm trying to think if I can remember any other nation chanting in that fashion in public areas other than sporting events on a regular basis, and I can't. (Not even the supposedly reprehensible Brasilian children at WDW seem to be that nationalistic, just excited)
While I don't agree with such behaviour even at sporting events, I find it really out of place outside the sports arena and imagine that if a group of us were to join forces and do the same in the US it too would be unpopular. Sure, 'USAUSAUSA' is catchy and easy to chant, but it isn't always appropriate. I think that it is great to take pride in your country if that is what you choose to do, but to do so whilst showing disrespect towards others does create a certain impression.
ExitRoworElse, I do believe that volume adds to perception of rudeness, regardless of the words spoken. Someone once told me that German sounds like a very angry language. I believe that it is because there are a lot of loud Germans when they get together in a group, and the loudness is what creates that impression.
Come on people..i have travelled for nearly 30 years and in general there are no better tippers than americans and many people are jealous of americans in general. Grow up and stop repeating the same comments about bad americans...most tour guides will tell you americans are the most polite and rewarding when it comes to tipping/order...many of you are jealous or act like sheep
And many of us don't see that as a good thing. I've seen many Americans force tips on people around the world where tips are not the norm. Their behaviour is frankly embarassing, and it also puts the person being forced to accept the tip in an awkward position.
Being 'big tippers' is not something of which to be proud, when one is ignoring the norms of the place where one is visiting.
Nor is America in a situation lately where most people are 'jealous' of Americans.
But your post certainly reinforces what many people find distasteful about tourists (not just Americans)
).
