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Old Aug 17, 07, 5:41 pm   #31
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Originally Posted by BenjaminNYC View Post
I really don't care what you do with your children, except for the discomfort of other pax.
As I suspected, your concern is not for my children, but rather for your own selfish enjoyment of your flights. Which is quite understandable. Who hasn't been annoyed at one point or another by a noise-making kiddo on one of their flights? That's a fair observation, but let's not disguise it by pointing to phantom safety concerns. And let's be honest while we're at it: a kid in a seat is no more likely to be well-behaved and quiet as a church mouse as a kid in a parent's lap; indeed in my experience, children who are not restrained in a seat for protracted periods of time are much more manageable.

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That aside, I don't understand why the FAA makes a big deal about people wearing a seatbelt during take off, landing and rough air for adults, but not for children. . . If it's worth the expense (to society as a whole) to force airlines to make seatbelts available to adults and to "force" adults to use them at certain times, why does the same principle apply to infants?
Nobody is arguing that using a seat belt is a bad idea. Adults and children two and older on domestic flights are required to pay for and occupy their own seat. Not so much for safety reasons as for economic reasons; the airlines don't want to allow free-riders on board and especially those who consume valuable resources. For individuals who must have their own seat, it certainly doesn't do any harm to provide them with a seat belt and having provided them with such, encourage or require its use. Infants under two are not required to do the same because they are not required to occupy their own paid seat on an airplane. The FAA could, of course, disallow lap children entirely, but it does not. The tolerance for lap children is an allowance for the reality that to many parents, the cost of a seat for a little tyke is not worth the intended benefit. Not even close.

To be honest with you, I'm not sure that adults derive much benefit from seat belts on airplanes. Certainly not even remotely to the same degree as they do when traveling in their own vehicles grounded firmly on terra firma. There are, to be fair, some instances where having and using a seat belt on an airplane will have substantial value: extremely severe air turbulence is the most prominent one that comes to mind. But unlike car wrecks, virtually all wrecks befalling airplanes are not survivable, seat belt or not. So again, with the millions and millions of flight hours worldwide since the advent of flight, how many times has a lap child suffered personal injury or death that would have been avoided had that infant been seated and belted? Can you point to even a single such documented event? Ever?

Finally, you continue to ignore the fact that merely because an infant is not seated and belted in a seat of his or her own that this doesn't mean that the infant is unrestrained (see, e.g., the Baby B'Air). Which brings us back to the underlying reality: the issue of lap children is far more about economics than it is about safety. And in your case, it is really a pretense for keeping children off flights you take in the first place.
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Old Aug 17, 07, 7:31 pm   #32
 
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Originally Posted by FWAAA View Post
I can't imagine why someone would want to hold a nearly two year old toddler on their lap for an entire international flight (never mind the slight safety risk).

Did that (once) when I was younger. Y was 100% full. On top of that, matronly FA's were in a particularly foul mood on that flight. I vowed never to do that again.

Take my word for it; it's not worth the savings in money.
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Old Aug 17, 07, 10:23 pm   #33
 
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When I travelled with my infant, I always needed to take a car seat with us. Also, my daughter knows how to behave when she's strapped into her seat in the car, so a car seat on a plane brings an element of normalcy to the plane trip.

On domestic tickets, an infant's ticket is half the price of the adult's ticket. That was always worth it for me!
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Old Aug 18, 07, 2:43 am   #34
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Originally Posted by SAT Lawyer View Post
As I suspected, your concern is not for my children, but rather for your own selfish enjoyment of your flights. Which is quite understandable. Who hasn't been annoyed at one point or another by a noise-making kiddo on one of their flights? That's a fair observation, but let's not disguise it by pointing to phantom safety concerns. And let's be honest while we're at it: a kid in a seat is no more likely to be well-behaved and quiet as a church mouse as a kid in a parent's lap; indeed in my experience, children who are not restrained in a seat for protracted periods of time are much more manageable.
Please..... why can't he be concerned about the child's safety AND not want to be bothered by the child? Seriously, how can you have an 18-24 month old lap child and NOT negatively affect the people sitting next to you on a flight of such duration?
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Old Aug 18, 07, 4:20 am   #35
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Its been my experience that I have been most bothered, annoyed and disrupted by bratty spoiled adults than an 18 month old baby!!!
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Old Aug 18, 07, 5:10 am   #36
 
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Maybe so, but in those cases one can (as I do) take it up with them.. politely of course....and if that fails to achieve the desired result, refer the matter to the FA's/CSD....

Not possible in the case of a screaming infant. In fact one pretty well MUST suffer in silence (as I do)... simply because any complaints would invariably lead to comments along the lines of some seen in this thread...

Demanding "we" advise "what can a parent reasonably do?"...

Why are you asking me ? **

I don't know.. I don't even have children.. You do... you work it out. Read the instruction manual or something....

Don't they come with an "OFF" switch?

** I DO know the question is rhetorical, just trying to have a bit of fun while making a small point.... unlike other disruptive pax, when it comes to the very young everyone else pretty much has to just put up with it. And that's fine.. sorta.... until we are "told" (verbally or otherwise) that we are "unreasonable" for complaining.... or for even daring to actually BE "disrupted".....
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Old Aug 18, 07, 6:51 am   #37
 
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Originally Posted by SuperSnoop View Post
When I travelled with my infant, I always needed to take a car seat with us. Also, my daughter knows how to behave when she's strapped into her seat in the car, so a car seat on a plane brings an element of normalcy to the plane trip.
That's exactly how it was with my son. Half the time if you put him in his familar car seat on the plane, he went to sleep. Another anecdote- I was once on a plane with a mother and a little girl who really needed her own seat. Before takeoff, she was fine until Mom would try and sit down and put her in her lap, at which point the sweet little girl turned into a screaming brat. And that's the way she was once we had to get seated for takeoff- and after takeoff. There was only one unoccupied seat on the plane- the middle seat in my row. The kind soul in the middle seat next to Mom and the lap child moved into my row. $##@! Screaming Brat got her own seat and calmed down.

I'm really surprised the OP's child LIKES traveling in Mom/Dad's lap. Some of the most miserable travelers I've seen have been lap children who really needed their own seats.
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Old Aug 18, 07, 9:43 am   #38
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Originally Posted by SAT Lawyer View Post
To be honest with you, I'm not sure that adults derive much benefit from seat belts on airplanes.
If you believe this to be the case, then I can see how you don't feel the need to buy a seat for your infant. Fair.
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Old Aug 18, 07, 9:47 am   #39
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Please..... why can't he be concerned about the child's safety AND not want to be bothered by the child? Seriously, how can you have an 18-24 month old lap child and NOT negatively affect the people sitting next to you on a flight of such duration?
Well, in reality, I really couldn't care less about his children. My questioning was more theoretical: How can "a parent" not feel the need to have their infant strapped in? He has answered my question: He doesn't feel that seatbelts add a meaningful safety advantage. Fair.

For those that DO believe seatbelts add a meaningful safety advantage, I wonder how they can justify not giving that safety advantage to their babies...
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Old Aug 18, 07, 11:27 am   #40
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Originally Posted by BenjaminNYC View Post
Well, in reality, I really couldn't care less about his children. My questioning was more theoretical: How can "a parent" not feel the need to have their infant strapped in? He has answered my question: He doesn't feel that seatbelts add a meaningful safety advantage. Fair.

For those that DO believe seatbelts add a meaningful safety advantage, I wonder how they can justify not giving that safety advantage to their babies...
It's the same calculation, Benjamin. Cost > safety/convenience benefit (on short flights anyway; on a long haul, I agree with all the others that getting a seat for junior is the only way to go). We all make calculations on this basis. I believe you've posted in an OMNI thread recently about how you are comfortable with speeding on the highway. Obviously you've made a calculation that the cost of doing so in fuel economy and the risk of doing so in exacerbating the consequences of a collision and shortening your reaction time in the event of an unexpected event (blowout, erratic driving by another driver, etc.) are worth the benefit of saving time in getting from point A to B. For what it's worth, I and my lead foot have basically made the same choice. But again, let's not pretend that the cost-benefit analysis with regard to buying a seat for an infant versus saving money and bringing the kid along as a lap child is any different at its heart.
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Old Aug 18, 07, 11:40 am   #41
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Originally Posted by BenjaminNYC View Post
Well, in reality, I really couldn't care less about his children. My questioning was more theoretical: How can "a parent" not feel the need to have their infant strapped in?

For those that DO believe seatbelts add a meaningful safety advantage, I wonder how they can justify not giving that safety advantage to their babies...
Of course the child that is not strapped in is not floating freely in the cabin, subject to the whims of gravity and turbulence. Perhaps it is not the seatbelt, specifically, that helps the passenger in these cases, but the general concept of a restraint system. Well, the kid has that, too- the arms of the parent. Sure, this is not going to help in a crash...but then they're all going to be dead, so it's irrelevant. I daresay, though, that just about anyone can hold the child as safely as the seatbelt in just about all other cases.

So, your argument that not belting the child implies that the unfeeling thinks the child does not require safety constraint of any kind falls apart there.

If I buy myself a burger, but don't buy my (nonexistent) child a burger, does that mean I think my child does not need to be fed?

Cheers.
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Old Aug 18, 07, 11:44 pm   #42
 
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Originally Posted by mvoight View Post
Please..... why can't he be concerned about the child's safety AND not want to be bothered by the child? Seriously, how can you have an 18-24 month old lap child and NOT negatively affect the people sitting next to you on a flight of such duration?
Seriously, when will people realize that one cannot generalize, not even about 18-24 month olds.
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Old Aug 18, 07, 11:52 pm   #43
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Originally Posted by mvoight View Post
Please..... why can't he be concerned about the child's safety AND not want to be bothered by the child? Seriously, how can you have an 18-24 month old lap child and NOT negatively affect the people sitting next to you on a flight of such duration?
In all honesty, I'm more negatively affected by seatmates who are smelly, loud, intoxicated, inquisitive, talkative, obese, armrest-hoggers, etc., than by 18-24 month old lap children. What's your point?
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Old Aug 18, 07, 11:53 pm   #44
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Well, in reality, I really couldn't care less about his children. My questioning was more theoretical: How can "a parent" not feel the need to have their infant strapped in? He has answered my question: He doesn't feel that seatbelts add a meaningful safety advantage. Fair.
BJ, good on ya.
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Old Aug 19, 07, 12:18 am   #45
 
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Until the alrlines provide passengers the 4-point belts worn by FA's what's the issue? How the hell much could that cost?

I want decent belts, airbags, all the things my car has and it doesn't fly through the air at 600+m mph.

Lapkids? Eh. Physics kicks in and notices that 30-50 lbs. can be restained by an protective parent arm, just like we used to do in our cars pre-seatbelts. Now, a 190 lb. person flying loose through the cabin can do some serious damage to a lot of people. Mostly to himself against the seatback.

This is not gravity-free outer space, folks.

Note: I do object to parents of overweight, overlong, overage, lapchildren who think the entire bulkhead and my seat and meal tray belong to them. (And I didn't like the couple behind me who threatened to sue me when the lapkid kicked over my wine and after soaking me, dripped through to her "brand new and very expensive bag" under her seat. She wiped it off, I spent many hours in wet pants. That's life.)
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