canuck_in_pa

I have seen that too...

kuroneko

As a different slant on this, and as someone who primarily travels alone for business, I'd say that IF there were an airline that decided to offer certain flights in C or F that implemented a child-free policy, I would consider that a marketable benefit. It would indeed encourage me to book that specifc flight and possibly pay a premium for it.

nickvora

Very timely indeed, planning a trip from MIA-HKG and back, have almost always flown in Biz/First for long haul INT'L, now with a 2 1/2 yr old, wondering what to book in (Y/J/F)..

I will say that I used to be like a lot of the FF's on this board, very intolerant and extremely upset when the parents "refused" to "control" their screaming infant. Now with a young child (who has thankfully travelled very well, she's got about 50k miles under her already) I do feel a lot more empathy for the parents.

To be honest - there's almost no way you can guarantee the "behavior" of a 2 year old, I'll extend to under 5. And "don't travel with them" is not an option for me - and I dare say for many others. Over 5 years, I really believe that they should know better, but I digress.

So - the biggest problem I've had recently is she's too excited - and will be ohing and ahhing thru the plane. Not that she's screaming or jumping or running, but she's genuinely thrilled to be on the flight, and finds everything fascinating... and will voice it out - frequently without realizing that she needs to whisper. So... I avoid overnight flights when possible, and I do Benadryl when needed... and try our best to keep her calm and quiet... but she's a 2 year old, I know there's bound to be an implosion sooner or later - so here's my pre-emptive, "I'm sorry" to all the other flyers... but trust me it wasnt' for lack of planning or caring... it happens.

I am really amazed that there are people on this board who think flying is a "choice" - c'mon, planes are much more akin to bus service now. I can't imagine not flying everywhere... so not that I don't care - but as someone else said: "Sorry you're on public transport - you can't control your environs"...

[EDIT] I do really like the idea of an adults only flight AND a family friendly flight - would love to see that - but I don't think it'll happen, lower loads etc.

PTravel

No disrespect intended, and I'm really curious. Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't read this, and similar comments, as really saying, "I've always thought that kids on planes are a pain to other pax. Now that I've got my own, I don't care if my kid is a pain to other pax."

sylvia hennesy

This whole thread is ridiculous; the tickets are for sale to whomever wants to buy. If you don't like sitting near children, but there they are, it's just an unfortunate (for you) fact of life. Why even question "should [whatever] human be allowed to sit" wherever.
And, because I never had to do anything but give the "look" to my children (having done my job as a parent), I have no problem with speaking out when there are behavior issues with others'; I've also spoken to parents who are being abusive to their children.

PTravel

To you, perhaps, but you have children with whom you fly (and, evidently, they are of the "perfect angel" variety).

They are, indeed, but this isn't a discussion about rights but courtesy and preferred policy.

I don't think anyone said anything about not liking sitting near children. The issuance isn't children, per se, but the disruption that some of them cause.

Ah, yes -- if you don't like nuisance and imposition, then tough -- deal with it. Did you really read the thread?

Because the airlines already regulate what kind of human can be allowed to sit where. Disabled humans cannot sit in exit rows. Drunk, aggressive or otherwise disruptive adult humans cannot fly at all. Do you question those policy decisions? Is there some reason why parents with children are exempt from constraints on their ability to disturb other passengers?

Ah, yes -- the perfect angels. Okay, assume that this discussion is only about "other people's children," since yours are never a nuisance.

Have you found that "speaking out" solves the problem of a shrieking baby on a red-eye? Has "speaking to parents" been effective when there's some little hellion playing roadrunner up and down the aisle on a long-haul?

Just curious.

nickvora

I can see why you'd get that impression - I guess I, and most other parents on this board, are trying to convey something more like:

"I've always thought that screaming nuisance kids on planes are a pain to other pax and man, can't the parents do something about it... Now that I've dealt with the kids myself, I know that even the most "angel" like children can dissolve, unexpectedly and for no reason whatsoever, into terrors (generally at the most inconvenient moment) and no matter what the parents do - that doesn't change. So while I still feel bad for all other pax (including myself, I fly over 100k miles a year without my child), I also sympathize with the parents"...

ALSO - want my pet peeve while I'm on this, is the parents who DO NOTHING about their screaming child... they're absorbed in their noise cancelling headphones OR DVD or snack/book/iPOD etc.... That's the worst of the bunch!

jhayes_1780

No disrespect taken... but along the lines of nickvora answer....

I did always hate when an infant would be screaming on the plane, and I still get mad when I hear an infant screaming adn the parents are doing NOTHING to comfort, control, feed, etc. As nickvora said " ALSO - want my pet peeve while I'm on this, is the parents who DO NOTHING about their screaming child... they're absorbed in their noise cancelling headphones OR DVD or snack/book/iPOD etc.... That's the worst of the bunch!"

Where my view has changed since becoming a parent is that I have more sympathy (and give some lattitude) for those who are trying to make the baby/infant/child happy.

to sum up... before we had our baby it was a BLACK/WHITE issue for me, now I see shades of GREY.

Unimatrix One

Exactly. If you cannot change your child's diapers in a discreet place in a sanitary manner on an airplane, then you should not be taking the child with you on that plane.

Unimatrix One

Do you mind if I ask the purpose of your trip to HKG? Is it just a vacation? If so, are you trying to tell me that your trip to HKG with your 2 1/2 year-old is not a "choice"? In what way is it not a choice?

Unimatrix One

I know that child-free flights will probably never work, but what I don't understand is why airlines with multiple-cabin widebody aircraft (like 747s and 777s with 2 or 3 different sections of business class) don't set aside one section of business as a specially designated "quiet area" off-limits to children under a certain age (e.g. 13). JAL's 744s typically have 3 sections of J class. The 777-200s have 2 sections of J class. Why not designate the forward section as such a "quiet area" (i.e. child-free zone)? Families could still travel in the 2nd section, and business travelers who actually want to use the lie-flat sleeper seats for, you know, sleep, can actually do so.

Unimatrix One

This is certainly a valid point, and sometimes flying is the only way for children to see their family. But I live in Japan as an expat, and I know other expat families, and I see them traveling with their children on purely discretionary trips to places like Hawaii, Florida, Europe, etc. There is no real reason why their children have to be on those flights or why they have to take those trips at all. The parents seem to think they shouldn't have to sacrifice any of their holiday trips just to show some consideration for the dozens of passengers around them on every flight who will be significantly annoyed by their loud children. Well, it always seemed obvious to me that becoming a parent involves a lot of sacrifices (and I don't even have children -- yet). If you like to travel overseas, that's fine, but there is a time and a place for that, and being a parent with young, noisy children is not the time to take lots of holiday trips by air. I am totally prepared to pare down my travel schedule when I have children. I would be horrified if I were on a full 747 flying across the Pacific and my children were screaming, jumping on the seats, etc. despite all pleas to stop.

kuroneko

I'm surprised that no one else has made this point yet. I have several friends who have extremely well-behaved elementary-school aged children that are regularly taken on C/F flights. I attribute their behavior to good upbringing. Know what? These same parents are the ones who made a conscious decision not to bring their kids out in any kind of public situation where they might be a bother to other people until they were old enough to be controlled.

I think this says a lot both about people who prudently don't put themselves in situations where they know their kids could potentially cause other people pain and those who don't consider this at all. It certainly seems to reflect in how good the kids end up being.

KweezyFlyer

Ah, the best parents are the ones who don't yet have any children.

Seriously, kids who are old enough to scream and jump on the seats, are old enough to be controlled. Unsuccessful "pleas to stop" are not adequate and I agree that parents who haven't learned how to do better should not take their kids where they can disturb others. Sadly, I don't think that you'll find a great deal of self-awareness on this point.

Like all FT'ers, I have a good kid who has been raised to behave in public - on planes, in theaters, in restaurants, etc. I see no need to pare down travel.

Unimatrix One

I don't know if I would agree with the "like all FT'ers," part, but if your child is well-behaved in public, then I also see no need for you to pare down your travel.

In fact, I will readily acknowledge that I have been on planes with well-behaved, quiet children.