Erasmus

I do a lot of traveling in premium cabins with an infant, and every time I book a new airline I have to try and dig up their policies on what type of restraint is allowed. While a carseat is often most comfortable (and safe) in economy and domestic F, it is occasionally not allowed---or convenient---in international premium cabins, especially those with lie-flat seats. We've recently acquired a CARES device, but have discovered it frequently is either not allowed or does not fit newer premium seats.

Many airlines these days don't have a blanket policy, as they have exceptions for various aircraft with different seating. I've searched a lot of forums and haven't found this information in a convenient place before. So, I thought I'd start a thread here with some of the rules I've found, and folks can chime in with others. I'm particularly interested in experience with the CARES device.

The following chart refers only to premium cabins on long-haul aircraft generally found only on international flights.

DL: Carseat allowed in all cabins. Seatbelt extender required in C on 747/767s with airbag seat belts. (Conflicting info/experiences on 777.)

UA: Carseat allowed in all cabins. CARES allowed only in old C (only the 777s).

LH: Carseat allowed in all cabins. CARES not allowed.

TK: Carseat not allowed in 777 C, otherwise OK.

LA: Carseat and CARES allowed in all cabins.

SA: Carseat allowed in all cabins. Carseats and CARES not allowed on SA express.

CX: Carseat and CARES not allowed in new C. CX has their own infant restraint for small ones.

NZ: Carseats and CARES not allowed in Premium Business.

This reflects my experience so far. I obviously haven't personally flown on all aircraft types of the above, so ask others to contribute corrections or exceptions. Thanks!

ArizonaRoadWarrior

I think it depends upon the age of the child. When our 4-YO son was 16-MO, we fly FC on LH and he had his own seat in FC. We had his car seat for take-off and landing but we removed his car seat from his seat when we could; turn his seat into a flat-bed seat and put his car seat at the end of his 'bed'. He had plenty of room to play and sleep and his car seat wasn't in the way.

Eclipsepearl

For any U.S. company, the FAA stipulates that car seats (with FAA stickers) have to be accepted if the child has his or her own seat and fits the car seat. This is up to 18 years old so the age of the child is not a factor (this basically covers children with special needs so they no longer have to justify the use of a restraint).

In theory, this should cover the CARES harness so UA wouldn't have the authority to refuse it. Of course, it may not fit (which I'm guessing is your experience).

Individual airlines in the U.S. can't override FAA regs.

CD_YOW

One of the problems being encountered is with the new seating configurations incorporating a herringbone layout. Car seats are generally only certified to be installed in either a forward or rearward facing direction -- not at an angle like these new seats. This might also be a reason for restricting their use in certain cabins.

Erasmus

Interesting, and certainly contradicts my experience---as well as the CARES packaging, which indicates it is up to each airline whether or not they choose to allow its use. Do you have any pointers to these regulations?

Exactly. In addition, many of the new "suite" style configurations have airbags that cannot be disabled---which also precludes the use of car seats. I've heard the same is true in CX Y, although I have no experience.

CD_YOW

Hi Erasmus...

The American regulatory requirement that Eclipsepearl referred to is 14 CFR 121.311 Seats, safety belts, and shoulder harnesses. Specifically, here are the requirements (and exceptions):

Erasmus

That one sounds like trouble (i.e., the "appropriate passenger seat location" bit). Seems like they can perfectly well say "Nope, not in this cabin. You're welcome to use it in coach, though..."

nnn

Thanks for this great resource.

One note: UA allows CARES in domestic F. I am not sure if your OP meant to include domestic F, but I would suggest perhaps making it more clear either way for others reading the thread.

Cellisttoo

On DL business class angled lie flat seats the CARES will not fit around the shell, just the seat itself. We were challenged on one flight, the purser eventually allowed it. But, the flight attendants had their manuals out and were showing us the section that said that the CARES must fit around the entire seat.

The reason that car seats are not allowed on some 777s in premium cabins is that they have airbags in the seat belts. If you were able to get the seatbelt through the car seat (they are pretty large, so not likely), it could be a hazzard if it deployed because it would be deploying against the bottom/back of the car seat.

I think that this is a really interesting situation and I am quite curious how it will play out. According to FAA regulations, approved car seats can be used on all US flag carriers, however, in reality they cannot be used in some forward cabins. My daughter is 3 now, so this is less and less of an issue for us, however I would not be comfortable having an 18 month old just in a seat belt. I also think that the airbag would make me question using the baby b'air. I would not relish the idea of having an airbag between myself and my baby. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Because of DL's cruddy policy of only allowing upgrades on fares that are within a few hundred dollars of discounted J, we are moving to a new strategy of buying extra economy seats to stretch out. Much cheaper.

Erasmus

Just returned from a trip on LAN, and delighted to report that none of the FAs batted an eye at CARES in Premium Business. And their flight crews were exceptionally welcoming and understanding of a toddler's needs. We were on five separate flights, and at least one FA on each flight spent considerable time interacting with DS.

stephem

There is a thread in the CX forum that CX will soon provide a child restraint seat suitable for 6months and up that will work on their herringbone J seat.

Erasmus

Was challenged for the first time in many flights today flying with a carseat in C on a refreshed DL 767 with the lie-flat seats. Was told carseats were not allowed and presented with DL regs dated 9/1/13 apparently saying that they are not allowed in the front cabin on 777LR/ERs, and an aggressive FA who insisted it also covered the 767 and 747s despite it being silent on the issue.

Thankfully, an off-duty pilot pointed out there is a label on the underside of the seatbelt itself which says clearly that car seats cannot be used *without* a seatbelt extender, but a proper seatbelt extender will disable the airbag.

So, end result was FA relented and allowed the seat to fly. I've flown with the seat on many previous occasions on similar equipment (e.g. 777 LR and ERs), and this is the first time I've ever had an issue, but you may find you need to ask for a seatbelt extender and point the FAs to the label on the underside of the seatbelt

GalleyWench

If its a seat equipped with an airbag then it requires a special seat belt extension (not the traditional extension used). Not sure about DL but at other airlines if that particular extension isn't available then the car seat can't be used in that seat and you will be moved to another row. CARES system can never be used with the airbag seats.
Might be a moot point if you're not talking about airbag seats though.

Eclipsepearl

By FAA regs, if a seat is purchased for a child, the car seat cannot be refused. They are required to reseat you if for some reason, the car seat can't be used in your assigned places.

Any child up to age 18 has the right to use a car seat on a U.S. registered aircraft, as long as they have a seat (which is always the case from age 2 on).

Erasmus, did you get the F/A's name? If not, report it to Delta with a description and the flight number. They will track her down because she was in violation of a FAR, a serious breech of professionalism in her job. Delta will want to know about this and other parents will benefit from your report.

Erasmus

AFAIK, there are no "rows" in C without the airbag seat belts. The issue is all of the new lie-flat seats that DL (and many other carriers) now use come with the same airbag-containing seat belts. This was the first time I had heard of the special disabling extender, though--and the FAs were similarly unaware. It was only the off-duty pilot (why he knew I have no idea) who was aware.

Yes, this "right" has been pointed out many times before, including unthread. However, I am not at all clear that this extends to a particular ticketed cabin--my read is that it only ensures seating somewhere on the aircraft. In particular, this is the text that suggests the "right" does not apply for premium cabins:

I would be delighted if anyone could point me to language stating otherwise. I have no desire to trade in premium-cabin seats for ones in coach just to use a carseat. I will happily book another carrier/equipment that can accommodate our needs.