Can they make me pay the LDW in Mtl?

 
Old May 30, 2010, 1:04 am
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Can they make me pay the LDW in Mtl?

I'm doing a 2-day rental 10-12 June in downtown Montreal, dropping at the airport YUL. The daily LDW is about $30.

I am 67, 1 accident in a parking lot in the last 20 years.

I phoned them and they are going to try to hammer me. What is strange is that when I was doin a bunch of Hertz rentals in 2007 and 2008, I was never hit with this once...but then I was renting in Nevada, Florida and the Yukon [Whitehorse].

Any thoughts please?
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Old May 30, 2010, 1:44 am
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What causes you to think you will be required to purchase LDW?

Reading the location terms and conditions at Thrifty.com, I don't see any mention of requiring LDW (unlike, say, any of the rental agencies in Costa Rica--if you want to see scary terms and conditions, check those out!).

What, specifically, did they tell you on the phone? On what basis would they require you to purchase LDW?

As far as I've ever known, here in the U.S. and Canada, regardless of whether you have existing collision coverage, you will not be made to purchase any coverage from the rental agency (in some jurisdictions, requring coverage is actually illegal).

Do you have your own collision coverage (either on a personal auto insurance policy or through a credit card)? If so, then there should be absolutely no reason they can require you to purchase coverage. If you don't, then they may have a policy requiring you to purchase LDW, which may or may not be legal in Montreal. If they do not have this policy, or if it is illegal, then you are free to decline the coverage even if you do not have your own. However, think twice before doing so. Nothing sucks worse than making a several-hundred-dollar-per-month payment on a car you don't own and will never see again.
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Old May 30, 2010, 1:52 am
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They said that I would have to check with my bank...

perhaps to see if they somehow cover me through my credit card. I'm with HSBC and really doubt it.

Perhaps ICBC can give me some good news.

I plan to explore each question that you have posed. Thanks jackal.
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Old May 30, 2010, 3:06 am
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I don't know the specifics about Canadian issuers, but it is now pretty much standard in the U.S. to have some type of CDW included in your card. Visa was the first to move this way when, a few years ago, they announced that all Visa credit cards (though not debit/check cards) would carry CDW. I'm not 100% sure that MasterCard and the others followed the same way, but it seems to be getting rarer and rarer now to encounter a card that does not provide at least some level of coverage.
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Old May 30, 2010, 4:15 am
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I can't comment on Canadian ways either.. but NONE of our CC's Down Under provide any sort of cover whatsoever...

I wouldn't rent a car without LDW/CDW so I use the all-in rentals available to foreigners.....

If you want to expereince being hammered I believe having a prang in a rental car withOUT coverage would satisfy that in spades!!
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Old May 30, 2010, 4:25 am
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Originally Posted by trooper
I can't comment on Canadian ways either.. but NONE of our CC's Down Under provide any sort of cover whatsoever...
Sounds like there may be a market opportunity here...the first card provider to include CDW would likely get signups in droves, especially given how frequently Aussies travel overseas! And where one starts, others will follow to avoid losing business.

There may be some legal reasons, though, why none provides this service now. After all, it's hard to find a card issued here in the U.S. that provides cover Down Under (for reasons I have yet to fully understand). Israel I understand (well, if they're afraid of claims due to collateral damage of violence), but the happy, peaceful nations of NZ and Australia?! Sheesh. Maybe there's some rules that prevent this benefit from being extended to someone based on card usage or something. If so, blame your government.
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Old May 30, 2010, 4:44 am
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on the subject of excluded nations, from the AMEX Premium Coverage (fee per rental): "Coverage is worldwide except for vehicles rented in Australia, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, and New Zealand." There must be something, perhaps protectionist? in each nation's laws.
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Old Jun 6, 2010, 11:36 pm
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Originally Posted by thefareguru
I'm doing a 2-day rental 10-12 June in downtown Montreal, dropping at the airport YUL. The daily LDW is about $30.

I am 67, 1 accident in a parking lot in the last 20 years.

I phoned them and they are going to try to hammer me. What is strange is that when I was doin a bunch of Hertz rentals in 2007 and 2008, I was never hit with this once...but then I was renting in Nevada, Florida and the Yukon [Whitehorse].

Any thoughts please?

I have a feeling that claims are higher in Montreal. It's got the most dangerous drivers in Canada..if not North America. Stop signs are only guidelines! As are red lights..and to hell with using turn signals or yeilding right of way. You may actually want to buy it, considering the OTHER people on the road in that city.
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 12:39 am
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Car rental 'insurance' works totally differently in Australia (and NZ I believe) to the US, in that is not possible to hire a care that is uninsured in Australia (which is a good thing!) given the following:

CDW/LDW is always included in Australia and a car cannot be rented without it (at least by Aussies) - I understand that this a legal requirement to protect hirers.

Although CDW/LDW is included, it has a large standard excess/deductible of AU$3,000-5,000 (Unfortunately, the legal requirement doesn't go as far as requiring a reasonable excess). This can be reduced to a nominal amount or even $0 by paying a daily fee of AU$25-40 depending on the rental company (a similar amount to the purchase of CDW in the US).

Given the large car fleets, I would assume that rental companies self insure (this also explains why they are carefully to note that CDW/LDW is not insurance, as a licence is required to sell insurance in Australia), therefore the purchase of excess reduction in Australia or CDW/LDW in the US effectively results in the same outcome - roughly the same extra revenue for the rental car company.

Legal liability is also always included (Again, I think it is a legal requirement).

Theft cover and third party property damage are also always included.

Australian car registration includes no fault injury cover for all drivers, passengers and any other road users (pedestrians, cyclists, etc). This cost is passed on to the renter in the form of registration recovery of approx. AU$5-6 per day.

I understand that in the UK and Europe, the rental car system is similar to the Australian system, in that CDW in usually included, but it has a substantial excess (GBP 500 - 1,500 in the UK and EUR 750 - 1,500 in Europe), which can be reduced to $0 with payment of a daily fee (from approx. EUR 17 in Europe).

Originally Posted by trooper
I can't comment on Canadian ways either.. but NONE of our CC's Down Under provide any sort of cover whatsoever...
Not entirely true - a number of Australian Credit Cards provide Excess Reduction Cover for both Australia and overseas, which is useful in Australia, the UK and Europe, but useless in the US.

Originally Posted by jackal
Sounds like there may be a market opportunity here...the first card provider to include CDW would likely get signups in droves, especially given how frequently Aussies travel overseas! And where one starts, others will follow to avoid losing business.

There may be some legal reasons, though, why none provides this service now. After all, it's hard to find a card issued here in the U.S. that provides cover Down Under (for reasons I have yet to fully understand). Israel I understand (well, if they're afraid of claims due to collateral damage of violence), but the happy, peaceful nations of NZ and Australia?! Sheesh. Maybe there's some rules that prevent this benefit from being extended to someone based on card usage or something. If so, blame your government.
Given the situation in Australia and Europe, there is no need for Australian Credit Cards to provide CDW, Legal Liability or Injury Cover for car rental in Australia or Europe. It would be great if they provided it for the US though!

And US cards don't need to provide CDW for Australia, as it's always included.

EDIT: jackal, reading some other posts of yours, it's apparent you probably already know all of what I have mentioned!

Last edited by AdMEL; Jun 11, 2010 at 3:09 am
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 2:01 am
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Originally Posted by pinworm
I have a feeling that claims are higher in Montreal. It's got the most dangerous drivers in Canada..if not North America. Stop signs are only guidelines! As are red lights..and to hell with using turn signals or yeilding right of way. You may actually want to buy it, considering the OTHER people on the road in that city.
Maybe most dangerous in Canada--but certainly not North America.

Ever been to Baahston?
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 8:28 am
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Originally Posted by AdMEL
Given the large car fleets, I would assume that rental companies self insure (this also explains why they are carefully to note that CDW/LDW is not insurance, as a licence is required to sell insurance in Australia),
This is exactly the same situation as in the U.S. Rental car fleets are self-insured, and rental agencies are not allowed to call it insurance due to licensing restrictions. It is always referred to as "coverage" or "protection."

Originally Posted by AdMEL
therefore the purchase of excess reduction in Australia or CDW/LDW in the US effectively results in the same outcome - roughly the same extra revenue for the rental car company.
I always found this interesting. It seems to me that you're getting less for more. In the U.S., it costs ~$20/day to provide effectively $30,000 (or whatever) in coverage. In Australia, since all but ~$3,000 is already covered, that same $20/day more or less only "buys" you $3,000 in coverage. And with many companies, that still leaves you responsible for a ~$300 excess. It just seems like a bad deal compared to the way it works in the U.S. "Excess reduction cover" should be lower cost in Australia than full CDW in the U.S.

Originally Posted by AdMEL
Legal liability is also always included (Again, I think it is a legal requirement).

Theft cover and third party property damage are also always included.

Australian car registration includes no fault injury cover for all drivers, passengers and any other road users (pedestrians, cyclists, etc). This cost is passed on to the renter in the form of registration recovery of approx. AU$5-6 per day.
Thanks for bringing this up and clarifying how things work in Australia. I've heard much of it before, but it's never been pieced together in one comprehensive place. I appreciate it.

For comparison purposes, in the U.S., legal liability, third-party property damage, and no-fault injury cover are bundled together in what is called "third-party liability."

Third-party liability is broken up into two components: property damage and bodily injury. Property damage covers damage to the third party's vehicle, and bodily injury covers medical bills as well as other costs such as lost income and other things the third party may sue you for. Third-party policy coverage limits in the U.S. are expressed as ##/##/##--bodily injury per person, bodily injury total per accident, and property damage total per accident, measured in thousands. For example, I have a 100/300/100 policy, meaning my policy will pay out $100,000 per person (in the third-party vehicle) up to $300,000 total and cover $100,000 in property damage. State minimums in Alaska are 50/100/25, which is higher than most other states (California and Pennsylvania are 15/30/5). If the damage exceeds my policy limits, then I am personally responsible for the rest, so people with a lot of assets tend to have higher coverage limits or significant umbrella policies.

On a related note, third-party liability purchased from rental companies in the U.S. has a $1m aggregate limit (no restriction on per person or property damage--just a total $1m maximum payout), so it can still be of value to people concerned about risk to their assets.

No type of insurance is included in the vehicle registration cost, but most (all?) states require vehicles to be covered with a third-party liability policy. Of course, it is technically possible to register a car and drive without insurance, and many times, people who are driving on suspended licenses (after a drunk driving conviction) will often be driving without insurance, since they cannot legitimately obtain such coverage.

In the U.S., basic third-party liability only covers damages to third parties--no coverage for people in your car or your own vehicle. Therefore, if you are hit by someone driving (illegally) without insurance or by someone with extremely low coverage limits (say, state minimums only), you will get nothing--unless you purchase another product known as uninsured/underinsured motorist protection.

I'm actually not clear on what product pays out for bodily injury in a no-fault situation. Property damage in a no-fault situation would be paid out by the driver's own collision coverage (assuming he/she has that coverage--people driving older, less valuable cars may not).

Originally Posted by AdMEL
I understand that in the UK and Europe, the rental car system is similar to the Australian system, in that CDW in usually included, but it has a substantial excess (GBP 500 - 1,500 in the UK and EUR 750 - 1,500 in Europe), which can be reduced to $0 with payment of a daily fee (from approx. EUR 17 in Europe).
My understanding, too. In fact, most places outside the U.S. seem to operate like this.

Originally Posted by AdMEL
Given the situation in Australia and Europe, there is no need for Australian Credit Cards to provide CDW, Legal Liability or Injury Cover for car rental in Australia or Europe. It would be great if they provided it for the US though!

And US cards don't need to provide CDW for Australia, as it's always included.
Australian cards don't need to include CDW for Australian or European rentals--as long as they DO provide excess reduction cover. Is that ubiquitous among credit cards over there?

And U.S. cards don't need to provide CDW for Australia, but they SHOULD provide excess reduction cover. I wish they would.

Originally Posted by AdMEL
EDIT: jackal, reading some other posts of yours, it's apparent you probably already know all of what I have mentioned!
Not all, by any means, and I do appreciate the comprehensive breakdown of Aussie insurance practices! I will be bookmarking this thread for my own future reference!
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 10:42 am
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Originally Posted by jackal
I always found this interesting. It seems to me that you're getting less for more. In the U.S., it costs ~$20/day to provide effectively $30,000 (or whatever) in coverage. In Australia, since all but ~$3,000 is already covered, that same $20/day more or less only "buys" you $3,000 in coverage. And with many companies, that still leaves you responsible for a ~$300 excess. It just seems like a bad deal compared to the way it works in the U.S. "Excess reduction cover" should be lower cost in Australia than full CDW in the U.S.
You're right - it's just a way for the car hire companies to get around the consumer protection legislation in Australia, I suspect, i.e. make the excess high enough that it forces most people to purchase the excess reduction, at the same cost as full CDW in the US, thereby earning the same revenue!

Most car hire compnies in Australia, except Avis/Budget, allow you to pay a higher excess reduction fee (typically AU$35-40/day) to reduce the excess to zero.

This appears to be one area where Australia differs from UK and Europe - there you pay one excess reduction fee to reduce the excess to zero, whereas in Australia, you either cannot reduce the excess to zero (in the case fo Avis/Budget) or have to pay a higher fee to do so (in the case of all the others)

Originally Posted by jackal
Thanks for bringing this up and clarifying how things work in Australia. I've heard much of it before, but it's never been pieced together in one comprehensive place. I appreciate it.
Now worries! Thanks for clarifying how it works in the US.

Originally Posted by jackal
For comparison purposes, in the U.S., legal liability, third-party property damage, and no-fault injury cover are bundled together in what is called "third-party liability."

Third-party liability is broken up into two components: property damage and bodily injury. Property damage covers damage to the third party's vehicle, and bodily injury covers medical bills as well as other costs such as lost income and other things the third party may sue you for. Third-party policy coverage limits in the U.S. are expressed as ##/##/##--bodily injury per person, bodily injury total per accident, and property damage total per accident, measured in thousands. For example, I have a 100/300/100 policy, meaning my policy will pay out $100,000 per person (in the third-party vehicle) up to $300,000 total and cover $100,000 in property damage. State minimums in Alaska are 50/100/25, which is higher than most other states (California and Pennsylvania are 15/30/5). If the damage exceeds my policy limits, then I am personally responsible for the rest, so people with a lot of assets tend to have higher coverage limits or significant umbrella policies.

On a related note, third-party liability purchased from rental companies in the U.S. has a $1m aggregate limit (no restriction on per person or property damage--just a total $1m maximum payout), so it can still be of value to people concerned about risk to their assets.

No type of insurance is included in the vehicle registration cost, but most (all?) states require vehicles to be covered with a third-party liability policy. Of course, it is technically possible to register a car and drive without insurance, and many times, people who are driving on suspended licenses (after a drunk driving conviction) will often be driving without insurance, since they cannot legitimately obtain such coverage.
To further clarify the situation in Australia, technically there is no insurance included in the vehicle registration fee - in practice most states have a government or semi-government body which provides the no fault injury insurance (commonly called Compulsory Third Party [CTP] insurance, although it only covers injury, not property damage) and levies an insurance charge in additon to the registration cost, but it is not possible to only pay the registration fee and not the insurance. Some states do not have a government body which provides the injury insurance - it must be obtained from private insurance companies (only a few provide it and it is highly regulated) and your car cannot be registered without it. It is still possible to be hit by a driver whose car does not have compulsory third party injury insurance, if the registration fee and insurance have not been paid, but given everyone is covered by no fault injury insurance, you will still be covered (for injury), as will they, even if their car is unregistered!

In the case of private vehicles, your comprehensive car insurance provides cover for damage to your car or theft, plus legal lilability for third party property damage. Legal liability limit is usually $5M, $10 or $20M. The excess for this type of policy is usually approx. AU$500, but can be reduced or increased. Third party property damage only policies are also avaialble. Unfortunately, none of these policies include cover for leisure rentals (they do sometimes cover rental when you're is being repaired or has been stolen).

With regard to the $1M third party liability you can purchase from US car rental companies - this amount seems quite low!

Originally Posted by jackal
In the U.S., basic third-party liability only covers damages to third parties--no coverage for people in your car or your own vehicle. Therefore, if you are hit by someone driving (illegally) without insurance or by someone with extremely low coverage limits (say, state minimums only), you will get nothing--unless you purchase another product known as uninsured/underinsured motorist protection.
Thanks for pointing this out. I am in the process of arranging a hire car from SFO for 3 weeks next month, so I'll make sure it is included.

Originally Posted by jackal
Australian cards don't need to include CDW for Australian or European rentals--as long as they DO provide excess reduction cover. Is that ubiquitous among credit cards over there?
No, it's not. For Australian rentals, as far as I am aware, the cards issued by two banks provide it - one only on platinum cards at no additonal cost (covers AU$5,500 excess with zero excess) and one on all cards at an additional cost of AU$24 p.a. (covers AU$2,400 excess with AU$350 excess). Other than that, I believe Amercian Express offers it on either a platinum charge card or platinum credit card and Citibank may also offer it on platinum cards. I'm not aware of any others.

For overseas rentals, most gold and platinum cards provide excess cover, of amounts varying from approx. AU $2-5,000 at no additional cost.

Before I forget, your Autoslash website is fantastic! Not much use for us Aussies though, as it appears that we get lower rates than US residents! At least, with hertz that is the case.

Last edited by AdMEL; Jun 11, 2010 at 11:14 am
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Old Jun 12, 2010, 12:41 am
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Originally Posted by AdMEL
In the case of private vehicles, your comprehensive car insurance provides cover for damage to your car or theft, plus legal lilability for third party property damage. Legal liability limit is usually $5M, $10 or $20M. The excess for this type of policy is usually approx. AU$500, but can be reduced or increased. Third party property damage only policies are also avaialble. Unfortunately, none of these policies include cover for leisure rentals (they do sometimes cover rental when you're is being repaired or has been stolen).

With regard to the $1M third party liability you can purchase from US car rental companies - this amount seems quite low!
And your $5, $10, or $20 million coverage limits seem quite high!

Our $1m limit on an SLI policy seems high because it is high relative to the low state minimums (well under $100,000 in most states) and even the liability limits typically carried by most middle-class families. Again, people with assets to protect have limits and umbrella policies that cover significantly more, but I would venture that most Americans are not in that boat (look at the rate of Americans with credit card debt--we're not good at managing our money).

I haven't heard any sort of cries to raise the minimums, so obviously the current system here seems to be acceptable to most people...

Originally Posted by AdMEL
Thanks for pointing this out. I am in the process of arranging a hire car from SFO for 3 weeks next month, so I'll make sure it is included.
In my experience, the best deals for overseas renters coming to the U.S. are the prepaid fully inclusive sites based out of the UK (http://dollar.co.uk, http://prepaid.thrifty.co.uk, http://www.alamo.co.uk/RatesAndReser...ect_default=US, etc.). As an Aussie resident, you should qualify to use those (it gives you the option to choose your country of residence to verify your validity). Those rates include all the coverage you need to be fully protected at rates MUCH lower than buying the products separately at the rental counter.

Originally Posted by AdMEL
No, it's not. For Australian rentals, as far as I am aware, the cards issued by two banks provide it - one only on platinum cards at no additonal cost (covers AU$5,500 excess with zero excess) and one on all cards at an additional cost of AU$24 p.a. (covers AU$2,400 excess with AU$350 excess). Other than that, I believe Amercian Express offers it on either a platinum charge card or platinum credit card and Citibank may also offer it on platinum cards. I'm not aware of any others.
Like I said, maybe there's a market opportunity. Or since these cards DO exist already, maybe the real work is in marketing them. Why wouldn't every Aussie have one? (Are the annual fees too high?)

Originally Posted by AdMEL
Before I forget, your Autoslash website is fantastic! Not much use for us Aussies though, as it appears that we get lower rates than US residents! At least, with hertz that is the case.
Thanks for the feedback! We'll be expanding our focus to look at international markets in more detail in the future, and this information helps us to make sure we can address these kinds of issues.
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Old Jun 18, 2010, 7:35 pm
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Well, I wasn't asked or hammered to pay the LDW in either Montreal with Thrifty or in Charlottetown with Hertz.

But the advice given here showed me how to prepare [forewarned is forearmed] to make sure as to how I indeed was covered. For those of you in BC, I have had no accidents for >20 years and therefore was able to use Rodestar from ICBC.

By the way, I found the Montreal driving pattern similar to ours in Vancouver and had no problems, either in Montreal or Quebec City, or on the highways between.

Thanks to everyone who helped.
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Old Jun 27, 2010, 10:58 pm
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Originally Posted by thefareguru
Well, I wasn't asked or hammered to pay the LDW in either Montreal with Thrifty or in Charlottetown with Hertz.

But the advice given here showed me how to prepare [forewarned is forearmed] to make sure as to how I indeed was covered. For those of you in BC, I have had no accidents for >20 years and therefore was able to use Rodestar from ICBC.

By the way, I found the Montreal driving pattern similar to ours in Vancouver and had no problems, either in Montreal or Quebec City, or on the highways between.

Thanks to everyone who helped.
Seems I missed this thread and the fact that you're a fellow British Columbian...

ICBC does cover you a few different ways:

1. RoadStar Package - Available to anyone with a 9-year claims-free discount, costs about $40/year
2. Roadside Plus - Available to anyone with collision coverage, costs around $78/year
3. Rental Vehicle Policy - Available to anyone with a B.C. Driver's License, costs $10/calendar day (minimum charge $20)

The Roadside Plus option offers $2 million liability, whereas buying an RVP or getting RoadStar only offers $1 million. They all include collision and comprehensive coverage with a $300 deductible. Any claims made against this rental coverage will not affect your rates.

If you rent from Thrifty in Canada with this coverage, you may be offered Protection Plus. Protection Plus is essential the bundling of Personal Accident Insurance and Personal Effects Coverage, but it also includes payment of your deductible in the event of a claim. It usually runs $7.99/day and I take it when offered. You get the LDW benefit of not having to pay a cent for any damage without having to shell out $25-30/day.
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