CHC Kiwi

Anyone know anything factual about the seriousness or otherwise of the new BKK's runways cracks? Are they dangerous? Fixable? Might Don Muang reopen for all flights for a time while the runway(s) is/are repaired?

Peter4

CHC Kiwi -

It is best to never expect "factual" information about anything here.
What is presented as fact today, will change tomorrow.

However, Bangkok newspapers sometimes have hints, which are sometimes in the correct, general, direction.
It takes some patience to read between the lines ... or, shall we say, between the cracks.

I have edited to make shorter.

-- Peter

sonoftheheartland

In 35 years of either living in Thailand, staying current on most aspects of society there, maintaining many longlasting friendships, or being happily married for 25 years to a lovely bride from Suphanburi ("Changwat Banharn"), the airport fiasco now playing out is the most obvious, most blatant, most venal, or most visible -- choose your adjective -- example of out and out corruption that is virtually out of hand on any and all "mega projects" now. With any previous change of government, "new" projects were stopped and investigated for corruption by the last gang -- and for the chance for the bagmen of the new crowd in power to start rigging the whole process, to the favors of their bosses in the right ministries and right offices. Democracy, Thai style.

I see no effective and transparent accountability on the horizon, despite protestations of such, for this entire mess, knowing the preference in Thailand to save face, to feel "kreng-jai" towards and among all manner of officials and contractors, etc., etc., and the enduring social characteristic to sweep as many problems under the tarmac as possible.

Gong chart, det kaht.

Peter4

.
More answers to the OP in the quote below.
(I have edited to make shorter.)

And I added bold to one sentence at the end.
If you want a quick lesson about Thai thinking, there it is, from a Thai.

Now a caveat:
The three quotes I have posted on this thread (so far) are from conventional news sources.
But I don't trust conventional news media.
Their motivation is to sell news, not necessarily to be accurate.
On the other hand, a source I would trust is reports of the insurers.
They are betting their own money, and, possibly, their own business survival, on the facts of the matter.
But, where to read insurers underwriting reports?
I simply don't know.
Probably not possible.

-- Peter

Peter4

Son's comments fit exactly with what I observe here everyday.
In small things, too, same-same.
The airport is only the biggest, most visible, instance.
No surprise, really, just a difference in scale.

Brings to mind Trotsky's aphorism, "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you."
To reach a better understanding of how things work here, substitute "corruption" for "war".

-- Peter

Rabidstoat

CNN has a story called Bangkok Airport officially unsafe. Makes me real excited to fly there next month.

From the article:

sonoftheheartland

SUVARNABHUMI--Rescue plan for airport

Expert warned 15 years ago building on a swamp was trouble. A top architect has suggested ways to save the Bt150-billion Suvarnabhumi Airport. Dr Sumet Jumsai said the increasingly serious runway cracks had to be resolved. "We have to make Suvarnabhumi work because it is already there. "For the runways, repairs to the cracks must continue, but Airports of Thailand should sheet-pile both sides of the runways along their entire length. "This should lessen the subsoil shift and reduce cracks on the apron's surface," he said. "In the long run it may be necessary to pile all the aprons. The new runway east of the existing polder [a polder is a dyked area], slated for expansion, might be built sooner rather than later. "In this respect the polder must not be expanded, and the new runway must not be land-filled. Instead the runway should be built above flood level on piers in order to allow flood water to pass under it," Sumet said. "In this way it will not impede water flow or further reduce the flood-retention capacity of Nong Ngu Hao swamp [on which the airport is built]." "There is nothing new in this. You can draw a lesson from the traditional Thai house on stilts standing comfortably in watery terrain. Traditional Thai architecture is amphibious and in harmony with nature."

Sumet, who opposed building the airport on the site because of unfavourable subsoil conditions, suggested air traffic at the four-month-old Suvarnabhumi Airport should then shift to the newly piled runway to allow the existing aprons to be piled. Alternatively, the old Don Muang airport north of Bangkok could be recommissioned to accept flights while repairs are carried out.

Sumet said his measures would not resolve flooding outside the polder, since the water-retention capacity of the swamp had been severely compromised by the airport. Sumet, one of Thailand's top architects, with many buildings in Bangkok, the provinces and neighbouring countries, recalled how 15 years ago he had fought against the location of an airport at Nong Ngu Hao on the grounds it went against nature. "Nature is now taking its toll in this swamp, and I feel everyone has got it wrong in the ongoing investigation. The bottom line is that with or without corruption - and every government in the design and construction phases is implicated - the runways and any structure not on piles will be subject to differential settlement and cracks," he said. "All you have to do is to look at the Bang Na-Trat Highway. After so many years and multiple layers of compressed sub-base, the road still sinks," he said.

SOURCE: THE NATION 28 JANUARY 2007

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007...s_30025296.php

(Dr. Sumet is a fine, fine man, an acquaintance of 30 years and former landlord of mine.)

Thunderroad

Very interesting post. Thanks! I understand the general meaning, sort of, but does anyone know what these terms (in bold) mean in plain English?

And no wise cracks, please...so to speak.

sonoftheheartland

Not sure what sheet pile means but piling means to drive more concrete pillars into the ground to support the runways and move them slightly above existing ground level. Assume the architect means to put so many pillars in a row along each side of the runway that the process is called sheet piling.

Don't know how difficult all this would be, since it sounds from Dr. Sumet's description that it would involve some less than complete scrapping of existing runways to drive the piles in. Somehow the technology apparently exists to put piles in that do not require an all new "playing field" if you will.

Just my guess.

rjh

Maybe they should put a golf course between the runways (to handle the drainage).

sonoftheheartland

Just like Don Muang with the RTAF golf course between both runways for more than 35 years.

vinnmann

Deleted

sonoftheheartland

Thanks, Vinnmann, for a much more well-informed comment on sheet piling than mine.

sonoftheheartland

From a close friend who attended the program Jan 31 at the Foreign Correspondents Club in Bangkok.

The chief engineer for AOT and now a member of its Board, Tortrakus Yomnak, last nite at the FCCT was refreshingly candid and said that there was a cover-up at the time of the initial newspaper report (August 2005).

He will testify for Sernsuk, the ex-Bangkok Post editor, at the Labor Court trial.

He also said that the construction project was rife with corruption - that 30%of the costs thereof went off as kickbacks/corruption - that the runways are cracking at the airplane take off areas where the planes, with full loads of fuel, overload the static limits on runways which probably have substandard sand under the concete (soil tests are underway with 3 different labs).

Hence the runway concrete is in effect hanging in space unsupported. Hence cracking occurs.

So far he has not seen any of the aggregrate in the concrete coming loose which could be sucked up into jet engines. About 70,000 sq meters of runways (both) must be repaired!

The aprons and aircraft parking areas are also cracking and subject to major repairs. If the subsoil, particularily the sand base, is as he suspects, then the runways will have to be repaired using very expensive techniques or be torn up and repaved. This is a 3 year project!

He did not have time to go into the terminal building issues except to say that King Power, the exclusive duty free concessionaire and total commercial space developer, was allotted, under an MOU (no contract yet signed), 5,000 sq meters for themselves and 20,000 sq meters for other concessions. KP actually took 11,820 sq m for themselves and another 25,828 sq m for the others. Why, well KP said that the MOU used the term "approximately XXX sq.m." so they fudged a bit figuring that they only had to pay a bit more rent/concession fees.

In expanding their space, they also blocked entrances and exits, accesses to gates, moved into the passenger walking areas, literally removed 4 moving walkways for passengers which got in their way, etc. . .

The running joke these days is that Thaksin built a massive department store and then put in an airport terminal builiding to enclose it. Of course the terminal building is 400 toilets short of actual needs, many of the jetways are not working -- well, the scandals go on and on.

He did mention the grossly substandard luggage trolleys (I think he described them as "terrible") which injure an average of 50 passengers a day.

Wanting to clarify rumors I had heard, I asked him how much the luggage trolleys cost - he replied, Baht 500,000,000 for 10,000 trolleys (including some form of maintenance). That's Baht 50,000 each or about US$1,400 each. I wonder how much grocery store trolleys cost in the US, or even here. You can almost buy a decent used car for that price.

He touched on the baggage scanning machines only briefly as the presentation and Q&A really focused on the cracks in the runways, taxiways and aprons. . .

Stay tuned.

###

PolandExpat

The background information, although fascinating, doesn't really address the major issue at hand. I'm flying LHR-BKK on 10 Feb and wondering if it's really safe to land/take off there. I know that they won't let jets land or take off if a gaping hole opens up in front of them, but isn't it quite likely that a jet could hit the runway and cause a hole to develop right then and there?

Is anyone postponing flights to BKK because of this or is the safety issue really being blown out of proportion by the media?

PS - Does TG give pajamas in F on both directions of the flight?