Involuntary downgrade from F to J BEFORE commencing my itinerary
May 1, 2016, 7:19 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seoul, KR
Programs: MAR Titanium, HH Gold
Posts: 572
Involuntary downgrade from F to J BEFORE commencing my itinerary
Hello guys,
I have a PNR ticketed by redeeming OZ miles for F seats. This includes a leg for FRA->BKK operated by TG.
This leg's metal has been changed from 380 to 773 so I will not have a F seat unfortunately...
I know I can raise a claim according to the EC 2004 (something) regulation given this leg's departure city is FRA but I am wondering if I am entitled to ask for compensation as I have not commenced my itinerary yet- my first leg (ICN->FRA) is on early June.
I contacted TG regarding this and two answers arrived:
FRA office: NO, PLEASE CONTACT OZ TO CHANGE YOUR ROUTES
BKK office: NO AS YOU DID NOT COMMENCE YOUR JOURNEY
Any comments are welcome, many thanks in advance.
I have a PNR ticketed by redeeming OZ miles for F seats. This includes a leg for FRA->BKK operated by TG.
This leg's metal has been changed from 380 to 773 so I will not have a F seat unfortunately...
I know I can raise a claim according to the EC 2004 (something) regulation given this leg's departure city is FRA but I am wondering if I am entitled to ask for compensation as I have not commenced my itinerary yet- my first leg (ICN->FRA) is on early June.
I contacted TG regarding this and two answers arrived:
FRA office: NO, PLEASE CONTACT OZ TO CHANGE YOUR ROUTES
BKK office: NO AS YOU DID NOT COMMENCE YOUR JOURNEY
Any comments are welcome, many thanks in advance.
May 1, 2016, 12:07 pm
#3
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Programs: ROP *G, BAEC Gold, HH Lifetime Diamond
Posts: 969
Hello guys,
I have a PNR ticketed by redeeming OZ miles for F seats. This includes a leg for FRA->BKK operated by TG.
This leg's metal has been changed from 380 to 773 so I will not have a F seat unfortunately...
I know I can raise a claim according to the EC 2004 (something) regulation given this leg's departure city is FRA but I am wondering if I am entitled to ask for compensation as I have not commenced my itinerary yet- my first leg (ICN->FRA) is on early June.
I contacted TG regarding this and two answers arrived:
FRA office: NO, PLEASE CONTACT OZ TO CHANGE YOUR ROUTES
BKK office: NO AS YOU DID NOT COMMENCE YOUR JOURNEY
Any comments are welcome, many thanks in advance.
I have a PNR ticketed by redeeming OZ miles for F seats. This includes a leg for FRA->BKK operated by TG.
This leg's metal has been changed from 380 to 773 so I will not have a F seat unfortunately...
I know I can raise a claim according to the EC 2004 (something) regulation given this leg's departure city is FRA but I am wondering if I am entitled to ask for compensation as I have not commenced my itinerary yet- my first leg (ICN->FRA) is on early June.
I contacted TG regarding this and two answers arrived:
FRA office: NO, PLEASE CONTACT OZ TO CHANGE YOUR ROUTES
BKK office: NO AS YOU DID NOT COMMENCE YOUR JOURNEY
Any comments are welcome, many thanks in advance.
You need to contact your ticket issuer so TG FRA is right. Only OZ will handle your booking.
May 1, 2016, 3:34 pm
#4
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 133
Or if they don't bother to act on your request earlier, just leave it be (assuming you're fine with the travel in J), wait patiently for the 14 protection window under EU261, and then start acting with EU261 in full force on your side.
May 1, 2016, 5:06 pm
#5
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seoul, KR
Programs: MAR Titanium, HH Gold
Posts: 572
I appreicate your good advice. Of course I have no problem with flying in J as the metal is 77W. I replied to the BKK office asking if I would be entitled to get compesation after commencing my itineary as is. I will share their response.
May 1, 2016, 10:07 pm
#6
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: WLG/BKK
Programs: TG*G, NZ*GE, QF G, Accor Gold
Posts: 10,195
Unfortunate situation. However, since your travel is 4 weeks away (ie hasn'yt commenced), why would/should TG have anything to do with an OZ award ticket?
Presumably you have enough time to get a 'full refund' of points/miles from OZ, or to reschedule.
I'm curious - given the period of notice that an F cabin is not available exceeds 14 days, would EU261 be a vaild recourse simply by waiting until within 14 days?
Presumably you have enough time to get a 'full refund' of points/miles from OZ, or to reschedule.
I'm curious - given the period of notice that an F cabin is not available exceeds 14 days, would EU261 be a vaild recourse simply by waiting until within 14 days?
May 1, 2016, 10:25 pm
#7
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 133
It kinda, sorta depends on what exactly the issue is, but regarding OPs problem, depending on who you ask - most commonly, though, the idea is that the EU261 (reimbursement for involuntary downgrade) kicks in on the day of travel, when you're actually denied your originally reserved and paid for class of service.
Last edited by jackebofh; May 1, 2016 at 10:26 pm Reason: punctation
May 1, 2016, 10:51 pm
#8
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seoul, KR
Programs: MAR Titanium, HH Gold
Posts: 572
Unfortunate situation. However, since your travel is 4 weeks away (ie hasn'yt commenced), why would/should TG have anything to do with an OZ award ticket?
Presumably you have enough time to get a 'full refund' of points/miles from OZ, or to reschedule.
I'm curious - given the period of notice that an F cabin is not available exceeds 14 days, would EU261 be a vaild recourse simply by waiting until within 14 days?
Presumably you have enough time to get a 'full refund' of points/miles from OZ, or to reschedule.
I'm curious - given the period of notice that an F cabin is not available exceeds 14 days, would EU261 be a vaild recourse simply by waiting until within 14 days?
It kinda, sorta depends on what exactly the issue is, but regarding OPs problem, depending on who you ask - most commonly, though, the idea is that the EU261 (reimbursement for involuntary downgrade) kicks in on the day of travel, when you're actually denied your originally reserved and paid for class of service.
May 1, 2016, 11:26 pm
#9
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: SEA/ORD/ADB
Programs: TK ELPL (*G), AS 100K (OWE), BA Gold (OWE), Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat
Posts: 7,763
EU 261/04 absolutely applies. The 14 day restriction applies to schedule changes, not to downgrades.
I ran into a similar situation, and I was able to get the LHR office to open up CDG-BKK space in F when the ZRH-BKK flight went to 2 class (there was open award space on LX ZRH-CDG). You're far more likely to get this type of resolution than you are to get the $7k in compensation, although I do know of somebody who received the latter a few years ago.
By fare rules, OZ's only responsibility is to offer a refund, so you're better off trying to negotiate with TG for an appropriate resolution.
I ran into a similar situation, and I was able to get the LHR office to open up CDG-BKK space in F when the ZRH-BKK flight went to 2 class (there was open award space on LX ZRH-CDG). You're far more likely to get this type of resolution than you are to get the $7k in compensation, although I do know of somebody who received the latter a few years ago.
By fare rules, OZ's only responsibility is to offer a refund, so you're better off trying to negotiate with TG for an appropriate resolution.
May 1, 2016, 11:58 pm
#10
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seoul, KR
Programs: MAR Titanium, HH Gold
Posts: 572
EU 261/04 absolutely applies. The 14 day restriction applies to schedule changes, not to downgrades.
I ran into a similar situation, and I was able to get the LHR office to open up CDG-BKK space in F when the ZRH-BKK flight went to 2 class (there was open award space on LX ZRH-CDG). You're far more likely to get this type of resolution than you are to get the $7k in compensation, although I do know of somebody who received the latter a few years ago.
By fare rules, OZ's only responsibility is to offer a refund, so you're better off trying to negotiate with TG for an appropriate resolution.
I ran into a similar situation, and I was able to get the LHR office to open up CDG-BKK space in F when the ZRH-BKK flight went to 2 class (there was open award space on LX ZRH-CDG). You're far more likely to get this type of resolution than you are to get the $7k in compensation, although I do know of somebody who received the latter a few years ago.
By fare rules, OZ's only responsibility is to offer a refund, so you're better off trying to negotiate with TG for an appropriate resolution.
Well if they say so then I should aim to get compensation rather than alternative routes...
May 2, 2016, 2:49 am
#11
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denmark
Programs: TK Elite
Posts: 11,846
The OP has been rebooked to J class and if the OP turns up at the airport the OP will travel in the service class booked/ticketed for (J) i.e. no downgrade.
OZ can do very little for you. Of course if F seats are available you should be rebooked but OZ will not be able to ask TG to open up award seats ex CDG or MUC. You need to ask TG BKK to do this - whether they are prepared to do is uncertain given that this is an OZ Award. Most likely TG BKK will try to direct to you contact OZ
Good luck - I think you will need it for this. Are you prepared to let it go and travel in J? TG J class on 77W is not at all a bad experience - it is very good (I have travelled CPH-BKK r/t 2 times in J on the 77W and I was very pleased with the hardware - service was so-so)
Anyway, in the past TG has been known to resolve similar downgrade situations at check-in with an envelope with cash. This was done some years ago for the downgrade DPS-BKK due to equipment change from 744. Whether TG will do the same in your situations remains to been seen, but I'm sure we will get some updates on this once the equipment change kicks in - you are not the only pax in this situation krub.
OZ can do very little for you. Of course if F seats are available you should be rebooked but OZ will not be able to ask TG to open up award seats ex CDG or MUC. You need to ask TG BKK to do this - whether they are prepared to do is uncertain given that this is an OZ Award. Most likely TG BKK will try to direct to you contact OZ
Good luck - I think you will need it for this. Are you prepared to let it go and travel in J? TG J class on 77W is not at all a bad experience - it is very good (I have travelled CPH-BKK r/t 2 times in J on the 77W and I was very pleased with the hardware - service was so-so)
Anyway, in the past TG has been known to resolve similar downgrade situations at check-in with an envelope with cash. This was done some years ago for the downgrade DPS-BKK due to equipment change from 744. Whether TG will do the same in your situations remains to been seen, but I'm sure we will get some updates on this once the equipment change kicks in - you are not the only pax in this situation krub.
Last edited by SK AAR; May 2, 2016 at 2:56 am
May 2, 2016, 3:03 am
#12
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denmark
Programs: TK Elite
Posts: 11,846
It kinda, sorta depends on what exactly the issue is, but regarding OPs problem, depending on who you ask - most commonly, though, the idea is that the EU261 (reimbursement for involuntary downgrade) kicks in on the day of travel, when you're actually denied your originally reserved and paid for class of service.
May 2, 2016, 8:21 am
#13
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: SIN
Posts: 352
Code:
Article 10: Upgrading and downgrading 1. If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class higher than that for which the ticket was purchased, it may not request any supplementary payment. 2. If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shall within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), reimburse (a) 30 % of the price of the ticket for all flights of 1500 kilometres or less, or (b) 50 % of the price of the ticket for all intra-Community flights of more than 1500 kilometres, except flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas departments, and for all other flights between 1500 and 3500 kilometres, or (c) 75 % of the price of the ticket for all flights not falling under (a) or (b), including flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas departments.
in this case OP can at best - 1) try negotiating with TG or 2) ask OZ for full - refund - and then rebook (finding award availability might be an issue)
May 2, 2016, 5:26 pm
#14
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seoul, KR
Programs: MAR Titanium, HH Gold
Posts: 572
The OP has been rebooked to J class and if the OP turns up at the airport the OP will travel in the service class booked/ticketed for (J) i.e. no downgrade.
OZ can do very little for you. Of course if F seats are available you should be rebooked but OZ will not be able to ask TG to open up award seats ex CDG or MUC. You need to ask TG BKK to do this - whether they are prepared to do is uncertain given that this is an OZ Award. Most likely TG BKK will try to direct to you contact OZ
Good luck - I think you will need it for this. Are you prepared to let it go and travel in J? TG J class on 77W is not at all a bad experience - it is very good (I have travelled CPH-BKK r/t 2 times in J on the 77W and I was very pleased with the hardware - service was so-so)
Anyway, in the past TG has been known to resolve similar downgrade situations at check-in with an envelope with cash. This was done some years ago for the downgrade DPS-BKK due to equipment change from 744. Whether TG will do the same in your situations remains to been seen, but I'm sure we will get some updates on this once the equipment change kicks in - you are not the only pax in this situation krub.
OZ can do very little for you. Of course if F seats are available you should be rebooked but OZ will not be able to ask TG to open up award seats ex CDG or MUC. You need to ask TG BKK to do this - whether they are prepared to do is uncertain given that this is an OZ Award. Most likely TG BKK will try to direct to you contact OZ
Good luck - I think you will need it for this. Are you prepared to let it go and travel in J? TG J class on 77W is not at all a bad experience - it is very good (I have travelled CPH-BKK r/t 2 times in J on the 77W and I was very pleased with the hardware - service was so-so)
Anyway, in the past TG has been known to resolve similar downgrade situations at check-in with an envelope with cash. This was done some years ago for the downgrade DPS-BKK due to equipment change from 744. Whether TG will do the same in your situations remains to been seen, but I'm sure we will get some updates on this once the equipment change kicks in - you are not the only pax in this situation krub.
Anyhow OZ notified this metal change asking for my confirmation but surely I have not confirmed this change yet just in case.Yeah wish me luck. I am contacting some agencies like EUclaim etc to get advice. I am fine with flying in J as mentioned if it provides a full-flat seat. I do not care about service and food krub!
Clause 9 of the regulation talks about downgrade:
Applicability of EU261 is variable at best. I have (rightfully) used the regulation for even small changes in my booking. The airlines can counter argue but it all depends on how you approach, negotiate or handle.
in this case OP can at best - 1) try negotiating with TG or 2) ask OZ for full - refund - and then rebook (finding award availability might be an issue)
Code:
Article 10: Upgrading and downgrading 1. If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class higher than that for which the ticket was purchased, it may not request any supplementary payment. 2. If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shall within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), reimburse (a) 30 % of the price of the ticket for all flights of 1500 kilometres or less, or (b) 50 % of the price of the ticket for all intra-Community flights of more than 1500 kilometres, except flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas departments, and for all other flights between 1500 and 3500 kilometres, or (c) 75 % of the price of the ticket for all flights not falling under (a) or (b), including flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas departments.
in this case OP can at best - 1) try negotiating with TG or 2) ask OZ for full - refund - and then rebook (finding award availability might be an issue)
Thanks for your comment. Obviously I do not want full-refund in this case given lack of F availability in all the similar routes. So then I need to go with the option #1- negotiation with TG. But I don't want to use too much time and energy for this so am contacting some agencies. But it seems they mostly delay with issues related to cancellation/delay not downgrade.
May 2, 2016, 9:56 pm
#15
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