Thai airlines face flying ban to US DCA given 65 days to address safety flaws
Dec 2, 2015, 12:27 am
#46
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My reading of the FAA is that category 2 countries are only prevented from new code shares with US carriers, not existing ones:
As specified in Federal Register, Volume 60, No. 210, October 31, 1995, foreign air carriers from countries with an IASA Category have the following technical permissions regarding economic authority:
• Carriers from Category 1 countries are permitted to operate into the U.S. and/or codeshare with U.S. air carriers in accordance with Department of Transportation (DOT) authorizations.
• Carriers from Category 2 countries that operate into the U.S. and/or codeshare with U.S. air carriers have such services limited to levels that existed at the time of the assessment.
• Carriers from Category 2 countries that seek to initiate commercial service into the U.S. and/or seek to codeshare with any U.S. air carrier are prohibited from initiating such services.
https://www.faa.gov/about/initiative...tives_IASA.pdf
As specified in Federal Register, Volume 60, No. 210, October 31, 1995, foreign air carriers from countries with an IASA Category have the following technical permissions regarding economic authority:
• Carriers from Category 1 countries are permitted to operate into the U.S. and/or codeshare with U.S. air carriers in accordance with Department of Transportation (DOT) authorizations.
• Carriers from Category 2 countries that operate into the U.S. and/or codeshare with U.S. air carriers have such services limited to levels that existed at the time of the assessment.
• Carriers from Category 2 countries that seek to initiate commercial service into the U.S. and/or seek to codeshare with any U.S. air carrier are prohibited from initiating such services.
https://www.faa.gov/about/initiative...tives_IASA.pdf
Dec 2, 2015, 1:16 am
#47
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There's no hidden agenda here as the audit requirements are well known in advance and the DCA should have been striving to repair the deficiencies identified a few months ago in the failed ICAO audit.
The goals are clearly identified, they just need to get their act together and works toward solving the problems.
Sadly, it's only the shadow of bigger problems here.
Dec 2, 2015, 5:36 am
#48
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The situation is sad indeed.
The wording of the FAA is a bit vague:
https://www.faa.gov/passengers/international_travel/
"FAA does not support reciprocal code-share arrangements between air carriers for the assessed state and U.S. carriers when the CAA has been rated Category 2."
Existing codeshares do not have to be terminated. But the way I read it is that US airlines have a decision to make. In case of an accident involving one of these codesahres, the US airline would be under legal threats. I doubt that any US airline would take the rsik. But are there any codeshares of TG flights with US airlines. UA stopped in 2012.
The wording of the FAA is a bit vague:
https://www.faa.gov/passengers/international_travel/
"FAA does not support reciprocal code-share arrangements between air carriers for the assessed state and U.S. carriers when the CAA has been rated Category 2."
Existing codeshares do not have to be terminated. But the way I read it is that US airlines have a decision to make. In case of an accident involving one of these codesahres, the US airline would be under legal threats. I doubt that any US airline would take the rsik. But are there any codeshares of TG flights with US airlines. UA stopped in 2012.
Dec 2, 2015, 6:46 am
#49
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The situation is sad indeed.
The wording of the FAA is a bit vague:
https://www.faa.gov/passengers/international_travel/
"FAA does not support reciprocal code-share arrangements between air carriers for the assessed state and U.S. carriers when the CAA has been rated Category 2."
Existing code-shares do not have to be terminated. But the way I read it is that US airlines have a decision to make. In case of an accident involving one of these code-shares, the US airline would be under legal threats. I doubt that any US airline would take the risk. But are there any code-shares of TG flights with US airlines. UA stopped in 2012.
The wording of the FAA is a bit vague:
https://www.faa.gov/passengers/international_travel/
"FAA does not support reciprocal code-share arrangements between air carriers for the assessed state and U.S. carriers when the CAA has been rated Category 2."
Existing code-shares do not have to be terminated. But the way I read it is that US airlines have a decision to make. In case of an accident involving one of these code-shares, the US airline would be under legal threats. I doubt that any US airline would take the risk. But are there any code-shares of TG flights with US airlines. UA stopped in 2012.
Dec 2, 2015, 10:42 am
#50
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Dec 2, 2015, 10:57 am
#51
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Mrs IainC and I will be flying TG next April, for me it will be the first time. Having read this thread has me quite worried on two fronts, (1) about the safety of the aircraft we will be flying (SYD-BKK-SYD), and (2) whether TG will still be flying at all due to its financial troubles. I guess nobody can really answer point (2), however, do I have good reason to be concerned about the safety of TG's aircraft?
Dec 2, 2015, 7:04 pm
#52
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Aviation safety overhaul to be completed by Aug 2016
do I have good reason to be concerned about the safety of TG's aircraft?
Probably not. A lot of these issues are related to the country's Aviation Authority, rather than a particular airline, and how they manage the overall process of implementing/monitoring international aviation practices and standards.
But there is no transparency here so one really never knows what's going on behind the curtain? There are lot's of rumblings about the lack of inspectors, maybe three at last count, and how unusually wealthy they've become. The good news is that TG is subject to extra scrutiny at foreign airports now, as a result of this kerfuffle, so hopefully they will catch any major problems?
I think the Military Junta will do everything in their power, and they have all the power, to keep TG financially "afloat". The loss of face in the event of any sort of major event (strike, insolvency) might bring down the dictatorship? That said, the level of TG's debt is staggering and the follow-on effects to those lenders - in the event of any default - might be 1997-like epic, assuming the "government" chose not to pay 100%.
do I have good reason to be concerned about the safety of TG's aircraft?
Probably not. A lot of these issues are related to the country's Aviation Authority, rather than a particular airline, and how they manage the overall process of implementing/monitoring international aviation practices and standards.
But there is no transparency here so one really never knows what's going on behind the curtain? There are lot's of rumblings about the lack of inspectors, maybe three at last count, and how unusually wealthy they've become. The good news is that TG is subject to extra scrutiny at foreign airports now, as a result of this kerfuffle, so hopefully they will catch any major problems?
I think the Military Junta will do everything in their power, and they have all the power, to keep TG financially "afloat". The loss of face in the event of any sort of major event (strike, insolvency) might bring down the dictatorship? That said, the level of TG's debt is staggering and the follow-on effects to those lenders - in the event of any default - might be 1997-like epic, assuming the "government" chose not to pay 100%.
Last edited by transpac; Dec 2, 2015 at 7:13 pm
Dec 2, 2015, 7:13 pm
#53
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Dont get Thai Aiways (TG) confused with airlines registered in Thailand
(I stand to be corrected....)
TG and PG both have passed the IATA's independent safety audit which is conducted to the ICAO (UN - Montreal ) standard. This means that TG is a relatively safe airline to fly on as the safety record as an individual airline is up to international standard.
What the ICAO and FAA have both de-graded is the country of Thailand's aviation industry. Things like general maintenance inspections (inspector competency), security at airports, etc... both things which have been questionable in previous audits.
Because TG is an airline registered and operating from Thailand, it gets lumped in with the country's general safety rating regardless of its corporate rating. And to some extent their operations will be affected by the environment they're operating in. That said, as long as they maintain the IATA accreditation (IASO it's called) I wouldn't lose sleep about a flight 4 months off.
edit: direct from the IACO website: "Please note: A significant safety concern (SSC) does not necessarily indicate a particular safety deficiency in the air navigation service providers, airlines (air operators), aircraft or aerodrome; but, rather, indicates that the State is not providing sufficient safety oversight to ensure the effective implementation of applicable ICAO Standards. http://www.icao.int/safety/pages/usoap-results.aspx
TG and PG both have passed the IATA's independent safety audit which is conducted to the ICAO (UN - Montreal ) standard. This means that TG is a relatively safe airline to fly on as the safety record as an individual airline is up to international standard.
What the ICAO and FAA have both de-graded is the country of Thailand's aviation industry. Things like general maintenance inspections (inspector competency), security at airports, etc... both things which have been questionable in previous audits.
Because TG is an airline registered and operating from Thailand, it gets lumped in with the country's general safety rating regardless of its corporate rating. And to some extent their operations will be affected by the environment they're operating in. That said, as long as they maintain the IATA accreditation (IASO it's called) I wouldn't lose sleep about a flight 4 months off.
edit: direct from the IACO website: "Please note: A significant safety concern (SSC) does not necessarily indicate a particular safety deficiency in the air navigation service providers, airlines (air operators), aircraft or aerodrome; but, rather, indicates that the State is not providing sufficient safety oversight to ensure the effective implementation of applicable ICAO Standards. http://www.icao.int/safety/pages/usoap-results.aspx
Last edited by DirtyDan; Dec 2, 2015 at 7:24 pm
Dec 2, 2015, 7:23 pm
#54
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Because TG is an airline registered and operating from Thailand, it gets lumped in with the country's general safety rating regardless of its corporate rating.
While I agree in principle, where this falls down is that if there is say a problem with the local ATC "practices" (training, staffing, over-work, etc.) - overseen by the Thai civil aviation authority and not TG - causing a separation issue, then it really doesn't matter how well-maintained TG's aircraft are.
While I agree in principle, where this falls down is that if there is say a problem with the local ATC "practices" (training, staffing, over-work, etc.) - overseen by the Thai civil aviation authority and not TG - causing a separation issue, then it really doesn't matter how well-maintained TG's aircraft are.
Dec 2, 2015, 7:31 pm
#55
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Because TG is an airline registered and operating from Thailand, it gets lumped in with the country's general safety rating regardless of its corporate rating.
While I agree in principle, where this falls down is that if there is say a problem with the local ATC "practices" (training, staffing, over-work, etc.) - overseen by the Thai civil aviation authority and not TG - causing a separation issue, then it really doesn't matter how well-maintained TG's aircraft are.
While I agree in principle, where this falls down is that if there is say a problem with the local ATC "practices" (training, staffing, over-work, etc.) - overseen by the Thai civil aviation authority and not TG - causing a separation issue, then it really doesn't matter how well-maintained TG's aircraft are.
Dec 2, 2015, 7:43 pm
#56
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However that would be an issue on any airline, even an US one.
Agreed, the ATC "issue" was the only one I could come up with on short-notice. But I'm sure there are many scenario which could indirectly affect TG as a result of potentially not following international aviation standards, at an acceptable level.
And your right to point out the security issues given the huge number of international criminals who use Thailand as a base, and the local supply of stolen and fraudulent passports on offer.
And the sheer idiocy of the local security procedures is staggering: gun, OK, bullet-proof vest, not OK.
I guess the point is that that TG could have the most perfectly maintained and piloted aircraft, but that might not help if some Orient Thai airlines junker crashes into a TG aircraft?
Agreed, the ATC "issue" was the only one I could come up with on short-notice. But I'm sure there are many scenario which could indirectly affect TG as a result of potentially not following international aviation standards, at an acceptable level.
And your right to point out the security issues given the huge number of international criminals who use Thailand as a base, and the local supply of stolen and fraudulent passports on offer.
And the sheer idiocy of the local security procedures is staggering: gun, OK, bullet-proof vest, not OK.
I guess the point is that that TG could have the most perfectly maintained and piloted aircraft, but that might not help if some Orient Thai airlines junker crashes into a TG aircraft?
Dec 2, 2015, 8:09 pm
#57
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Are there "safer" airlines? Of course. But the bottom line is that flying TG is no less safe than flying numerous other "major" airlines, and undoubtedly safer than many other airlines currently operating in Asia.
Dec 2, 2015, 8:19 pm
#58
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Govt braces for Europe air downgrade
The government is scrambling to rectify aviation safety woes after the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) downgraded Thailand's air safety rating, six months after the kingdom was red-flagged by...
http://www.bangkokpost.com/media/con...03/1400813.gif
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/poli...-air-downgrade
Aviation stocks slide after US downgrade
AVIATION and aviation-related stocks yesterday witnessed a drop across the board in response to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)'s decision to downgrade the Thai authority over its aviation audit standards.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/busi...-30274207.html
The government is scrambling to rectify aviation safety woes after the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) downgraded Thailand's air safety rating, six months after the kingdom was red-flagged by...
http://www.bangkokpost.com/media/con...03/1400813.gif
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/poli...-air-downgrade
Aviation stocks slide after US downgrade
AVIATION and aviation-related stocks yesterday witnessed a drop across the board in response to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)'s decision to downgrade the Thai authority over its aviation audit standards.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/busi...-30274207.html
Dec 2, 2015, 9:45 pm
#59
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Second aviation safety ruling on Thailand is due mid this month
But that’s not all yet as the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) will report its finding on the country’s aviation safety in the middle of this month.
Both the government and the private are awaiting its report with concern as this will have wider impact on related industries, particularly tourism.
If its finding turns unfavourable, then the hardest hit will be the country’s, national flag carrier, Thai Airways International (THAI), which a third of its revenue is derived from routes to European destinations.
http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/sec...mid-this-month
But that’s not all yet as the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) will report its finding on the country’s aviation safety in the middle of this month.
Both the government and the private are awaiting its report with concern as this will have wider impact on related industries, particularly tourism.
If its finding turns unfavourable, then the hardest hit will be the country’s, national flag carrier, Thai Airways International (THAI), which a third of its revenue is derived from routes to European destinations.
http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/sec...mid-this-month
Dec 2, 2015, 11:16 pm
#60
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You can come up with disaster scenarios ad-nauseum, but that's not really relevant.
Are there "safer" airlines? Of course. But the bottom line is that flying TG is no less safe than flying numerous other "major" airlines, and undoubtedly safer than many other airlines currently operating in Asia.
Are there "safer" airlines? Of course. But the bottom line is that flying TG is no less safe than flying numerous other "major" airlines, and undoubtedly safer than many other airlines currently operating in Asia.
I second that. No need to start to worry and make life miserable