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Motion Passed 8-0-1: Amendment to TB Guidelines

Old Nov 4, 2015, 2:50 pm
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Motion Passed 8-0-1: Amendment to TB Guidelines

 
Old Nov 12, 2015, 1:08 pm
  #46  
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Originally Posted by dchristiva
Exactly. "Resort". It's not a starting point. Fail to vote without communicating why or hold a process hostage and I'm going to convey that action to the membership and call you out for it. Because that's what it deserves. TB members have taken on a clearly defined role. We all know what the job entails on the front end. Can't do it? Don't run? Can't do it after you've taken on the job? Resign and let someone else do the job. It's really simple.

There's a huge difference between random snark for no reason and being called on the carpet for shirking one's duty. That's part of being a team. Again, I want to be held to the same standard. If I don't pull my weight, tell me and the membership in no uncertain terms.

I sense that there's a lot of thin skin on the part of some folks running for office this year. What I want to know is, what are the newcomers planning to do if the perceived snark and name calling persist?
There's no thin skin. We had similar issues years ago, addressed them with a motion that we felt solved the problem, and moved on. As a TB member, you can read all that history if you ever need sleep and don't have Ambien handy.

There's quite a difference between thin skin and diplomacy.
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Old Nov 12, 2015, 1:11 pm
  #47  
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Originally Posted by dchristiva
Exactly. "Resort". It's not a starting point. Fail to vote without communicating why or hold a process hostage and I'm going to convey that action to the membership and call you out for it. Because that's what it deserves. TB members have taken on a clearly defined role. We all know what the job entails on the front end. Can't do it? Don't run? Can't do it after you've taken on the job? Resign and let someone else do the job. It's really simple.

There's a huge difference between random snark for no reason and being called on the carpet for shirking one's duty. That's part of being a team. Again, I want to be held to the same standard. If I don't pull my weight, tell me and the membership in no uncertain terms.
I recall when a TB member was removed for dereliction of their duties and it was done without any of the vitriol seen in recent times so it is possible to hold members responsible for their actions or inaction without "going negative".

Originally Posted by bdscholbel
I confess that some of us became a bit snarky when publicly (and privately) discussing the situation.
I appreciate that admission Bruce as the snark factor has been quite evident recently and all I'm saying is I don't believe it needed to be to still accomplish things. I'll leave it at that however.
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Old Nov 12, 2015, 1:17 pm
  #48  
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Originally Posted by tcook052
I recall when a TB member was removed for dereliction of their duties and it was done without any of the vitriol seen in recent times so it is possible to hold members responsible for their actions or inaction without "going negative".
Neglecting your own duties is a far cry from preventing other people from performing theirs. Just sayin'.
I appreciate that admission Bruce as the snark factor has been quite evident recently and all I'm saying is I don't believe it needed to be to still accomplish things. I'll leave it at that however.
I agree with you. I'm not a saint. There are many things I could have handled differently -- and maybe better. Constructive criticism is welcomed -- at least by me.

Bruce
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Old Nov 12, 2015, 1:18 pm
  #49  
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Originally Posted by RichMSN
Hold on a second. I thought there was to be no electioneering here.

(1) I would've eliminated the private forum years ago. Not my decision.

(2) The amendment that recently passed solved any perceived problem.

(3) What's the point of piling on the existing member, especially since that member is not up for re-election?
To dissuade the behavior that's occurred in the past in the hope that we can work to moving forward together. The constant "holding up of the process" doesn't do anyone any good. Yes, the recent TB action should eliminate the impact, but the message about trying to work together rather than lurking in the shadows and being a bystander needs to be delivered.
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Old Nov 12, 2015, 1:25 pm
  #50  
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Originally Posted by bdschobel
Neglecting your own duties is a far cry from preventing other people from performing theirs. Just sayin'.
The inaction caused votes to go the whole voting period IIRC which delayed if not ultimately prevented some matters from moving forward.
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Old Nov 12, 2015, 1:26 pm
  #51  
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As I have said repeatedly, that was just the tip of the iceberg.

Bruce
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Old Nov 12, 2015, 4:03 pm
  #52  
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Originally Posted by RichMSN
There's no thin skin. We had similar issues years ago, addressed them with a motion that we felt solved the problem, and moved on.
Agree, and I was on TB during that timeframe.

Originally Posted by tcook052
I recall when a TB member was removed for dereliction of their duties and it was done without any of the vitriol seen in recent times so it is possible to hold members responsible for their actions or inaction without "going negative".

The snark factor has been quite evident recently and all I'm saying is I don't believe it needed to be to still accomplish things.
Agree 100%.

Originally Posted by bdschobel
Neglecting your own duties is a far cry from preventing other people from performing theirs. .

Bruce
Oh puhleeze. No TB member can prevent another TB member from performing their duty. To say otherwise is just silly. And your comment about welcoming constructive criticism is a bit off, as you've just doubled down & continued to go after one TB member over & over.

My question is - what if someone gets elected also does something you don't like or drags it out (although this motion takes care of the dragging it out part)? Will we see the same behavior & public attacks? As someone who likes & respects you so much it's pained me to see you get into it this year & just double down. Quite frankly, on the public sniping, there are a few TB members who need to look into the mirror & ask themselves how it helped TB & FT. (answer: it didn't).

Originally Posted by dchristiva
To dissuade the behavior that's occurred in the past in the hope that we can work to moving forward together. The constant "holding up of the process" doesn't do anyone any good. Yes, the recent TB action should eliminate the impact, but the message about trying to work together rather than lurking in the shadows and being a bystander needs to be delivered.
As mentioned before, we had someone a few years ago who did something similar. A motion got passed then - as it has now been done again. We did it w/o the snarkiness exhibited in the public forum this year. Trying to publicly take on a TB member on a personal level (re: of frustration), especially when it's against the TB guidelines, did not reflect well on TB this year, especially when it was done under the guise of well the members need to know.

The members don't actually give too patooties about the inner workings of TB or if a forum gets created at day 6 or day 14. Would it be nice to have it done sooner? Sure. Will the FT world fall apart if it doesn't? Absolutely not.

Does public bickering & attacks ever really get someone to change their behavior or just make them dig in themselves?

BTW - I say that as someone who was extremely irritated/frustrated w/ the TB member who delayed things this year, but who also knows that a prior TB had a similar situation & dealt with it with a lot more class than this year.

On a final note I'll leave you w/ this because I am so sick & tired of the fact, both as a regular FTer & a TB candidate, that TB sniping has overtaken both TB & the election process, but I'm not posting on it again in this thread or the election thread re: the topic. You can argue amongst yourselves/have the last word/whatever. I'm quoting myself below from Q3 in the TB election questions:

"I'd like to remind everyone that the question was actually: "Do you see yourself as a person who is capable of standing above such (ie, snark, bickering)? In what way can you contribute to a friendlier and more tolerant FlyerTalk?" And not about a specific individual, especially since TB membership changes each year. Top down thinking.

I also think the horse has been beaten to death/the dog has gnawed through its bone entirely/fill in the appropriate metaphor re: this year's snarkiness & particular individuals - and that we move on, whether that be the individual or the ones who like to keep banging on & on about an individual. And focus on working together on future issues in a civil manner. Both TB & FT would benefit from it."


Cheers. Sharon
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Old Nov 12, 2015, 4:21 pm
  #53  
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Originally Posted by SkiAdcock
As mentioned before, we had someone a few years ago who did something similar. A motion got passed then - as it has now been done again. We did it w/o the snarkiness exhibited in the public forum this year. Trying to publicly take on a TB member on a personal level (re: of frustration), especially when it's against the TB guidelines, did not reflect well on TB this year, especially when it was done under the guise of well the members need to know.

The members don't actually give too patooties about the inner workings of TB or if a forum gets created at day 6 or day 14. Would it be nice to have it done sooner? Sure. Will the FT world fall apart if it doesn't? Absolutely not.

Does public bickering & attacks ever really get someone to change their behavior or just make them dig in themselves?

BTW - I say that as someone who was extremely irritated/frustrated w/ the TB member who delayed things this year, but who also knows that a prior TB had a similar situation & dealt with it with a lot more class than this year.

On a final note I'll leave you w/ this because I am so sick & tired of the fact, both as a regular FTer & a TB candidate, that TB sniping has overtaken both TB & the election process, but I'm not posting on it again in this thread or the election thread re: the topic. You can argue amongst yourselves/have the last word/whatever. I'm quoting myself below from Q3 in the TB election questions:

"I'd like to remind everyone that the question was actually: "Do you see yourself as a person who is capable of standing above such (ie, snark, bickering)? In what way can you contribute to a friendlier and more tolerant FlyerTalk?" And not about a specific individual, especially since TB membership changes each year. Top down thinking.

I also think the horse has been beaten to death/the dog has gnawed through its bone entirely/fill in the appropriate metaphor re: this year's snarkiness & particular individuals - and that we move on, whether that be the individual or the ones who like to keep banging on & on about an individual. And focus on working together on future issues in a civil manner. Both TB & FT would benefit from it."


Cheers. Sharon
So I will ask again, if the "snark" or "bickering" doesn't go away with the next installment of TB, what would you (or any other candidate who wants to answer, for that matter) do to stem it?

Clearly I am different from the rest of you. I'm not going to sit quietly while others impede progress just because they can (in the case of waiting a full 14 days to vote when the outcome has already been decided). I know that issue has, presumably, been addressed, but something else is apt to arise that will limit or prohibit progress. That whole, "the good does not have to be the enemy of the perfect" thing. Sometimes "close" is good enough.
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Old Nov 12, 2015, 4:53 pm
  #54  
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Originally Posted by dchristiva
So I will ask again, if the "snark" or "bickering" doesn't go away with the next installment of TB, what would you (or any other candidate who wants to answer, for that matter) do to stem it?
My earlier point was that sometimes there is no way to improve the situation other than changing the rules for next time. Sometimes every other action serves only to exacerbate the problem.
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Old Nov 12, 2015, 9:11 pm
  #55  
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Certainly you are correct. Every bad situation cannot be improved.

But my highest priority is not ensuring that everyone speaks very nicely and politely to each other. That's superficial nonsense. I care much more about the substance of what people say and do. And I strive to accomplish something once in a while, as I have done over this past year, notwithstanding the efforts of another TalkBoard member to bog us down needlessly.

The people who suggest that needless delays and other obstructionist behavior go with the territory should try enduring it themselves. See how much fun it is to have one person -- yes, just one -- constantly throw obstacles in the path of everyone else. This is neither name-calling nor snarky. It's just the truth, and no one has yet contradicted it.

Bruce
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Old Nov 13, 2015, 12:11 am
  #56  
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Originally Posted by dchristiva
So I will ask again, if the "snark" or "bickering" doesn't go away with the next installment of TB, what would you (or any other candidate who wants to answer, for that matter) do to stem it?

Clearly I am different from the rest of you. I'm not going to sit quietly while others impede progress just because they can (in the case of waiting a full 14 days to vote when the outcome has already been decided). I know that issue has, presumably, been addressed, but something else is apt to arise that will limit or prohibit progress. That whole, "the good does not have to be the enemy of the perfect" thing. Sometimes "close" is good enough.
You can grit ypur teeth, but you were not entitled to anything on day 6 when the voting period was and is 14 days.

This, as we've mentioned, is nothing new. Sharon and I were bith on TalkBoard when this happened time after time on every vote. It's why the measure that voting results be announced as soon as the required number of votes were received was proposed and passed in the first place.

The new amendment is a positive step, but a 7-day voting period also makes a lot of sense, especially as connected as even the busiest travelers are.

Finally, when you represent FT, there is an inherent responsibility to be polite under most circumstances. Having to wait an extra week to roll out a forum doesn't strike me as end-of-the-world stuff.
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Old Nov 13, 2015, 2:20 am
  #57  
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If waiting till the last minute to vote were the only issue, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. That was the least of our problems.

Bruce
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Old Nov 13, 2015, 7:58 am
  #58  
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Originally Posted by RichMSN
You can grit ypur teeth, but you were not entitled to anything on day 6 when the voting period was and is 14 days.

This, as we've mentioned, is nothing new. Sharon and I were bith on TalkBoard when this happened time after time on every vote. It's why the measure that voting results be announced as soon as the required number of votes were received was proposed and passed in the first place.

The new amendment is a positive step, but a 7-day voting period also makes a lot of sense, especially as connected as even the busiest travelers are.

Finally, when you represent FT, there is an inherent responsibility to be polite under most circumstances. Having to wait an extra week to roll out a forum doesn't strike me as end-of-the-world stuff.
Could not disagree more here. This is not what I signed up for. "There's a time to be nice, and a time not to be nice." That applies in FT and in life. I'll give you "polite" until you haven't earned that respect any longer. I don't stand for folks who stand on ceremony to impede progress in my professional life, and I don't feel any differently about the responsibilities of TB. If you need two weeks (or one now) to contemplate an issue, by all means, take your time. But don't come here and say "the dog ate my homework" or "I overslept".
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Old Nov 13, 2015, 12:14 pm
  #59  
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Originally Posted by dchristiva
Could not disagree more here. This is not what I signed up for. "There's a time to be nice, and a time not to be nice."
"When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite." - Winston Churchill

It is rarely ever beneficial or helpful to belittle someone by using derogatory names or snarky comments. Now that doesn't mean that you (or anyone else) has to always just sit around and take whatever affront you have received. By all means respond, just try to be polite and courteous while you are squashing them.
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Old Nov 13, 2015, 1:10 pm
  #60  
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I think it is time to "retire" this thread (at least until after the TalkBoard elections).

A well respected Flyertalk member sent a note to this forum's moderators, which I paraphrase:

The thread has completely moved off the original subject and has simply morphed into another offshoot of this topic: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...d-tensions.htm


I think that is accurate.
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