Andriyko

Hello,

sometime ago the name of the "Russia/CIS based airlines" forum was changed to "Russia-based airlines". Just to point out, many airlines discussed in that forum are not Russian-based. Even the "CIS" part was not exactly correct, as Georgia is not a member, Ukraine is not a member and Moldova is on the way out. I am not even sure that many people elsewhere in the world know what CIS is as this is a very loose organization that never really acted a single entity internationally.
Is it possible to change the name of the forum to something more appropriate as to not keep offending people from other countries?
My suggestion would be to single out Russian-based airlines and to move Moldova and Ukraine to the European airlines forum, while discussing other airlines in appropriate regional forums.
The USSR broke up 23 years ago, and there is no good reason to keep associating its former republics with it.
At least do not call it 'Russian'. Please. It offends people.

Thanks you for considering this.

MSPeconomist

Would Russia/FSU be better?

Andriyko

Not many people will know what 'FSU' is. A whole generation of people grew up who do not know much about the USSR, even in the former USSR itself. I could understand the reference 20 years ago just after the USSR broke up as the whole territory was 'Russia" and we all were 'Russians" for the outside world but I no longer understand why these countries need to be tied to and associated with something that ceased to exist so many years ago, or be grouped with Russia for that matter. Nobody says 'former Czechoslovakia" - somehow people learnt there is Czech Republic and there is Slovakia. Nor are certain countries referred to 'former British, French, Belgian, etc. colony' (they are known by their names and geographical location). We, in Ukraine, think of ourselves as Eastern Europeans rather than former Soviets... In the travel forum Ukraine and Moldova are discussed in the European forum, and I can see no good reason why the same logic cannot apply to airlines...at the end of the day this is where our countries are.

MSPeconomist

When the current forum was created, there was a sense that Russia and CIS together would have enough traffic for a forum. I'm not sure whether the same would be true for Russia alone.

I'm just thinking aloud here, but Eastern Europe would seem like a descriptive term that could be defined, but would you want it to mean what used to be called CIS/FSU? Or would it include countries that once were categorized as eastern Europe but now think of themselves as central Europe, i.e., Hunagary, Poland, Czech Republic? This could mean moving some airlines from the "other European" forum, which again raises these issue of whether the remaining Other European forum would generate enough traffic.

It's complicated, but thanks for initiating a discussion.

Perhaps people should think about where the natural boundaries would be drawn as well as suitable names for the area. Then it would make sense to check what the numbers would look like under one or more potential reconfigurations.

SkiAdcock

andriyko, just for some background information on how the forum came to be & discussions re: the naming & description. Name & description was one of the hardest parts to sort out. It may be time to sort it again; it may not. But you might want to read these threads.

This one started out as a request for Aeroflot but expanded beyond to Russia & CIS, etc.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...lot-forum.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...cis-forum.html

Cheers.

mia

I think of Flyertalk as a library. We need to store information where visitors can readily find it. Creating and maintaining forums with regular activity helps to keep the information fresh, but may not make it straightforward to find.

I believe TalkBoard should be open to the notion that sometimes a low volume forum is better than hosting the same content in a more active forum. Traffic is one metric to judge if a forum is useful, but low volume does not always indicate failure.

Andriyko

I did not mean to create a forum for Eastern Europe or Central Europe - who would define those boundaries? If one thinks that Europe geographically ends in Ural then Ukraine would be right in the centre rather than in the East.

My main gripe is why should countries from different geographical areas be grouped together? I don't see a forum for airlines of the Commonwealth of Nations, even though the Queen is the monarch for many of its members.

The CIS is not a thing. It is not even like the Commonwealth (where there is at least a single head). Plus, only 9 of the former Soviet Republics are members.
As far as 'FSU' is concerned... The USSR existed for all of the 69 years, do we really have to identify the countries that once were its Republics as former Soviet Union? 23 years later? Would we refer to these countries as FSU for longer than the thing existed? Plus, would not that include airlines of the Baltic states?

It is very easy to pin point where the Baltic States, Belarus, Ukraine and Moldova are - in Europe. These countries individually obviously do not warrant existence of specific forums but there is a forum where airlines from these countries belong - Other European Airlines. Airliners from other countries that used to be in the USSR can be discussed in the 'Other Asian, Australian, and South Pacific Airlines' forum.

There is just no such continent or a geographical reality as FSU or CIS that justifies pulling airlines from countries that used to be/are members of these entities together.

If a Russian specific forum does not attract a lot of traffic then its airlines should probably be discussed in one of the forums I mentioned above. I can see why Russian-based airlines would not be actively discussed in an English language forum.

The title as it appears now is an offence to people from the countries that are also mentioned in its description. But grouping these countries together just because they were in a union for a rather short period in history would be wrong as well, and so will be calling the forum 'CIS' or 'FSU' for the reasons I described.

There is a natural and suitable title - the Continent is called Europe, these countries are in Europe, so it should not be difficult for people looking for information about their airlines to know where to look. Identifying the area as the former USSR (something that existed for brief 69 years) after it's been long gone is what seems unnatural to me.

Andriyko

Exactly!

It would not occur to me to go to a 'Russian-based airlines' forum to seek information about Ukraine or Kazakhstan. And this is how I even identified this problem. The world has moved on after the collapse of the USSR.

MSPeconomist

OK, so you want to propose a single "Other European Airlines" forum, with or without Russia included. You're not suggesting that we merely change the name of the forum (as the title of this thread suggests), or are you? Do I understand correctly? [AFAIK all of the major Russian airlines are based in the European part of Russia and have hubs there.]

Andriyko

SkiAdcock, thank you for the links! I did read those threads. However, it has not changed my opinion that it was not appropriate to group airlines from these countries together...especially in such an arbitrary way. The Baltic states should not be in the former USSR thread because they are now part of the E.U. Or Europe is only the E.U.? Well what about those countries that are in Europe but are not in the E.U.? There is a continent of Europe with perfectly defined boundaries and it makes perfect sense to discuss airlines of European countries in the European forum. It is wrong to arbitrary add airlines from other countries to a Russia tilted forum simply to justify its existence (mostly, once again, for Russian airlines' sake). FSU is not a geographical reality and many people (especially young ones) do not (nor should they) define former Soviet Republics as such...for many it's just Ukraine or Belarus or Uzbekistan.

I just don't know how (and why) one should group these countries together when CIS only has 9 of them and the FSU is an obsolete term. Unless one lists all of these countries in the thread's title (which would be ridiculous). It makes sense to group countries by their geographical locations rather than former unions/alliances.

Andriyko

Yes, that is correct. I want to propose to discuss airlines in the respective geographical forums if specific ones can't be created for them. I simply do not know what a common name would be to preserve the existing forum as it is. CIS is not a commonly known name (and, as I already mentioned, it only has 9 former Soviet Republic as members), and it's not even a thing really that anyone knows of. The FSU is also inappropriate - first, according to FT it should not include Baltic airlines (which is wrong from the historical prospective), second, do many people still remember (or younger ones know) what the Republics were and can name them? The USSR has long been gone, and it is time to accept a new reality (as many have) that some former members joined other unions, while others exist as independent nations. And it's been a long time since I heard Ukraine or Estonia or Moldova described as 'former USSR' (only as a history lesson). It is simply not what defines these countries today.

Regarding Russia - I also agree that its airlines should be discussed in the 'Other European Airlines' forum even though Russia lies in 2 Continents. But it really makes no difference to me if its airlines keep their own forum (there are a few major carriers) or they are discussed elsewhere.

The reason I brought up the 'change' is that I found reading the title 'Russian-based' and then reading 'Ukraine and other CIS countries' derogatory to myself and other people from these countries. But the more I thought about it after I started this thread the more I realized that there is no reason for us to be grouped together and I could not come up with a name that would be natural for all involved countries in the new reality.

lin821

We'd seen TB apply geographic logic when creating 4 individual budget airlines fora all at once, even there are only 11 running threads in Budget Middle East and African Airlines currently. I hope to see logical consistency with every TB term when forum creation or restructure is up for discussion.

I am also seeing a bit of parallel dynamics in this new Russia-based airlines forum (re)discussion thread and the recently revived "Greater-or-not" China airlines proposal thread. Some data points on XXX-based airlines forums on FT:

1. Currently there are only 3 existing airlines fora in such grouping, naming Hawaii-Based Airlines, India-Based Airlines, and Russia-Based Airlines.

2. Hawaii-based and India-based airlines fora are 2 self-explanatory groups with (geographic) clarity. No argument there. Forum traffic is no issue for those 2 either.

3. OP raised great points when the deciding factor of an airline forum isn't the airline entity but geography, an all-around and convincing arrangement & grouping better be presented, or controversy will definitely follow. This failed TB motion is a proof. I sincerely hope when taking a 2nd look at the established Russia-based airlines forum and meanwhile considering the Airlines of China proposal, all present and future TBers shall keep that in mind. Instead of creating unnecessary debates and/or dispute, we should expect a new airline forum to provide clarity with easy to find info:

nsx

That sounds reasonable: Rename Russia/CIS-based Airlines to Russia-based Airlines, then move the non-Russian airline threads to Other European Airlines.

MSPeconomist

Is it just Moldavia and the Ukraine or are there other airlines that should be moved to the "other Europe" forum?

Would the next step then be to also move Russian airlines into the "other Europe" forum also or would a dedicated forum only for Russian airlines generate enough traffic?

Andriyko

Belarus, Ukraine and Moldova should be discussed in the 'Other European Airlines' forum.

As for the second question - I guess we will have to wait and see. I don't see many threads in that forum even now.