JDiver

FlyerTalk moderators have always been, first and foremost, members. They have neither a prohibition nor requirement to participate in TalkBoard (or any other) discussions.

If we do participate, the Moderator title and which fora they moderate is clearly shown in their information box displayed to the left of each post. (The exception would be the four Senior Moderators, who have fora they moderate but among other duties also moderate all fora without assigned moderators. And there occasionally moderator members elected to serve on TalkBoard.)

Many moderators additionally choose to include a disclaimer of some kind they are posting as a member, not as a moderator, particularly if there is a possibility of confusion relating to their role and its relationship to a particular post (especially in a forum they moderate).

I hope this provides some clarification. Now we can proceed without discussing moderation, as it is actually dilatory to the purposes of this forum.

Thank you.

JDiver
(Posting as moderator of this forum .)

intuition

So now when this has been pushed through, would some TB member be so kind to explain how it is supposed to work?
All I can see is a mess of multiple threads which I need to click into and read to understand what kind of deals they are. As opposed to before, when one could just easily read through the master thread and quickly skip those posts that wasn't of interest.

For instance, I have no interest in deals on economy class whatsoever. How can I follow the premium deals in this new strcture?

18sas

??? The forum is strictly limited to premium class deals. Are you looking in the right place?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/premium-fare-deals-740/

OverThereTooMuch

Premium econ is also included.

Some standard terminology in the title will resolve this, similar to what's already used for airline/routes. Forum moderators have stated they are working on posting guidelines.

intuition

Then I look forward to the instructions that forum moderators are preparing and later enforcing.


As of now, the new subforum is populated with threads structured like this
ie
Airline: Origin-Destination, Price

This does not fulfil the targets mentioned in this thread.
1. It is not less confusion but more, since the subforum opened before any rules were established.

2. It is not an easier layout but a more complex one. You cannot see what kind of deal it is by looking at the thread topic, but you need to click into each thread to know. For one, you cannot see if it is a economy, business of first travel class. Also, the sheer volume of threads (if one needs to post one thread for each origin-destination pair) will make the sub forum overflow
The "see [preemium delas] at a glance" is certainly not fulfilled.

3. It is not "Airline agnostic", ie it is still very much structured for the milage run - with Airline as the most significant information in the thread title.

MSPeconomist

Economy fares should never be posted in the new forum.

Ideally the thread title should have all the important details so that one can simply skim thread titles on the sub forum main page and then click to read the discussion. TB intent is that more discussion will be allowed than in the current megathread. There also should be less confusion than in the megathread regarding to which fare deal remarks are addressed.

In your UA example, I would guess that it's a business class RT as I'm not sure UA offers IFC to EZE. Also, this is in line with recent business class RT sale fares on DL (booking class Z) and other carriers during the last year.

intuition

Well, to me 'Premium Economy' is an economy fare, and according to the passed motion, these deals should be included.



I appreciate you are trying to help me here, but my example wasn't about that. It was about the difficulty of decoding the fares that are posted.

The previous rules were to leave the subject blank and instead as simple as possible post all details needed in each post. By reading one sentence you knew all the details of that deal.

This motion promises an easier way of reading deals and IMHO it has not yet fulfilled that. Even you, the very seasoned FT'er, need to guess what the deal is, and you are only able to do so because you are familiar with what is generally offered on the mentioned route.

If this kind of knowledge is required, then I cannot see how this change can ever deliver on the promise of FT readership being able to see at a glance what is going on.

SkiAdcock

Some of that is required by the person posting a fare. If they post details then it will be easier. If they don't it won't. That's not controllable by TB.

Cheers.

OverThereTooMuch

The same sort of title is used, whether it's a new post or it's a new thread.

The problem was always there. But now it's easier to see it.

Easy to correct.

intuition

I understand this, and as said elsewhere examples of good and bad subjects are to be found in all forums.

However, when approving a new subforum that so explicitly requires all participants to post well formed subjects or otherwise the intentions of the motion is lost - did TB weigh this into the decision or did you just see your role as providing the community with means, and after that it is out of your hands?

I read your reply in the happy/sad thread (and apologies for not follow it up there, but for me this has more bearing on TB than on the actual forum) and I kind of got the impression it wasn't an issue for TB as it is out of your control anyway. I'm asking because I'd like to understand this process better.


One last question - since it is now the moderators who are responsible for setting the sub-forum-rules up - is there somewhere FT'ers can contribute their ideas and opinions on the forum rules, or would that be discussing moderator actions (which is prohibited)?

MSPeconomist

I'm not sure it's useful to argue over definitions, but to me, Premium Economy is not Economy. These are separate fare codes, often with letters like W, for a completely separate cabin class, usually with different and wider seats--not just a few additional inches of pitch--sometimes with footrests. There can be different F&B, an amenity kit, (different) pillows and blankets, free AVOD, more recline, lounge access, etc. too. Premium Economy does not include UA Y+ or DL/KLM EC.

Since these fares are typically much higher than regular economy fares and the seats are genuinely different, we included Premium Economy with the idea that for some, but not obviously all, people, Premium Economy good deal fares would be used the same as good deal business class and first class fares by those who do not want to fly coach.

Until now, Premium Economy good deal fares have been covered in their own mini megathread rather than being permitted to be posted like coach fares in the MR forum. That thread is small, IIRC with about 100 posts to date this year versus close to four thousand in the premium fares megathread for 2014. If someone isn't interested in premium economy deal fares, these will sufficiently few threads, and should be clearly identified as such in the thread title, that they should be easy for that person to skip over.

kokonutz

No, there is not. And that's one of the most frustrating aspects of FlyerTalk: we can all work collaboratively to create a new forum. But we may never publicly speak about how it is being run by mods.

If you have suggestions about moderation you have to communicate privately with the moderator(s) and/or the Community Director. That's it.

JDiver

Point of information: To most airlines, Premium Economy is not an Economy class or fare.

Premium Economy on most airlines exceeds 40" seat pitch (e.g. incurring full APD departing the UK, is situated in a separate cabin, costs significantly more and is ticketed differently than Economy, may often have separate check-in facilities and amenities.

Cathay Pacific et al Premium Economy, British Airways World Traveller Plus, etc. are Premium services, not Economy.

On many airlines one may upgrade from Economy using upgrade instruments, but not to Business, as that is not the next Class of Service; concomitantly, the next class of service upgrade from Premium Economy is Business.

Economy seats with slightly extra seat pitch, such as American Airlines' Main Cabin Extra, or United Airlinrs' Economy Plus, are not Premium Economy seats. They usually receive the same services, meals, check-in and boarding sequence as Economy, and are most often situated in the Economy cabin.

JDiver

Well, that seems contradictory to me. Those with suggestions, as you say, can contact the Moderators and / or Community Director. Moderators generally value members' contributions and take them under consideration when made.

kokonutz

There is no opportunity for an open collaborative process, as there was with regard to the creation of the subfourm.