LondonElite

I'd agree to that.

smilee

I personally think that the MR forum is loosing momentum because of premium fares. In the old day, many mileage runners where buying fares so they could redeem for J or F awards.

There has been a huge paradigm shift in frequent flyer programs. It can be argued that MR rarely makes sense because of the lack of benefits and the reduced inventory available with our points. Combine the reduced inventory with low J fares that seem to be popping up more then ever. I think the demand for a premium forum is greater now then ever.

I personally would love to see a Premium Mileage run forum but could see a problem with making mistake fares too open.

<redacted>

SkiAdcock

We're discussing creation of premium deals in the private forum.

Cheers.

18sas

Background: Years ago, in order to support the discussion of fare sales on travel in premium cabins, a catch-all mega-thread called Good Deal Premium Fares was created inside the Mileage Run forum. The purpose was to allow people to share information regarding these premium fare sales that, while good, do not yield the cost-per-mile ratio low enough to be considered true Mileage Runs. Originally we were given a single lifetime mega-thread, but at the end of 2009, it was shut down and a series of annually recurring threads took its place, beginning with the “Good Deal Premium Fares 2010” thread. From here on out I will use the term “the mega-thread” to refer to either the original or any of the series of annual threads.

Challenges: The mega-thread is invaluable to its loyal user base; however, due to a lack of internal organization, most frequent users would prefer to see the mega-thread converted into its own Good Deal Premium Fares forum. Some of the chief complaints of the mega-thread include:

• Confusion caused when multiple deals are active at once, which is usually the case. It is frequently hard to follow and to match which posts are about which deals.
• Missed opportunities due to size of thread. It’s easy to miss certain deals due to the size of the mega-thread. If you are not following daily, it’s very easy to overlook a deal that might be have otherwise been valuable.
• Mega-thread has to be closely moderated, leading to a stifling of discussion. Due to the sheer volume of posts moderators seek to streamline the discussion to strict posting of fares, deleting many posts deemed to be off-topic, which while helpful for finding info, inhibits free discourse for some of the unique aspects of premium travel. Take cabin configuration discussions as an example. There is a wide range of cabin comfort and amenity offerings among the various airlines’ premium cabin products, much more so than in economy. Such information is crucial when determining the relative value of a particular deal. However, while this information is a frequent topic of discussion in the mega-thread, these types of posts are frequently deleted.
• Heavy deletion of posts causes problems with the board software, where paging gets out-of-whack and certain pages become inaccessible.

Proposal: In order to continue to promote the free discussion of premium fares and to deliver additional value to FlyerTalk users, I propose that TalkBoard should elect to close the Good Deal Premium Fares mega-thread and replace it with a Good Deal Premium Fare forum, which will be a sub-forum of the Mileage Run forum. (I will now refer to this sub-forum simply as “the sub-forum.”)

Possible add-on proposal #1: TalkBoard could potentially consider closing the “Good Deals in Premium Economy” mega-thread and allow posting of Premium Economy deals within the sub-forum.

Possible add-on proposal #2: TalkBoard could potentially consider closing the “Good Deals in Economy” mega-thread and allow posting of these deals within the sub-forum as well, turning the sub-forum into a catch-all “Good Deals, but not Mileage Run per se” forum.

Recommendation: Personally, I am strongly supportive of the Proposal, ambivalent towards Add-on #1, and opposed to Add-On #2.


Arguments to support the adoption of the Proposal:
1. Will the forum be (or is it now) beneficial to FlyerTalk?
Absolutely. The content expected in the proposed sub forum is already shared via the dedicated mega-thread.

2. Will the new forum benefit a relationship with FlyerTalk? E.g., does the forum provide value for FT members, such as a friendly ear highly placed in the company
Yes, there is no doubt that a Good Deal Premium Fares forum would provide value to certain subset of FT users. As an example, my own travel habits have changed due to the information shared in the mega-thread. I purchase more premium class tickets than before after learning how surprisingly affordable premium class travel can be. The mega-thread has helped me broaden my travel horizons also. In addition to routine domestic premium travel, I take more frequent trips to Europe and also have discovered destinations in Asia, South America and Africa that I would have not otherwise visited were it not for the deals posted in the mega-thread. The information in the mega-thread has enhanced my travel experience immensely. (And by “enhanced” i mean in the dictionary meaning of the term, not in the airline marketing-speak meaning of the term.)

3. Is FT the best place to discuss this subject?
Of course. Getting the most value from the travel experience is a unifying theme of all activity on FlyerTalk.

4. Is there a passionate following? This is essential in order to provide dedicated expert helpers to get questions answered.
Absolutely. There is a very loyal and dedicated following for the mega-thread. Certain posters have gained solid reputations for consistently sharing valuable deals, the user CokeAndTaco for example.

5. Is a critical mass of posts and readers anticipated or existing? We need adequate traffic to keep everyone visiting frequently. One living forum is more valuable than two mostly dead ones.
Yes, the 4 most active posts in the Mileage Run forum are:
Good Deal Premium Fares (the original that was closed at the end of 2009)
Good Deal Premium Fares 2014
Good Deal Premium Fares 2012
Good Deal Premium Fares 2013

Nearly all the Top 10 threads in Mileage Runs are either some form of “Good Deal” thread or one of the more famous mistake fare threads (and several of them like the ex-RGN and ex-CMB deals were also for premium travel.)

While a separate sub-forum would not be nearly as active as the Mileage Run forum itself, activity in the Good Deal Premium Fare thread would be comparable to some of the smaller Airline Program fora such as Alitalia MilleMiglia or LANPass. It would also rival the Mileage Run Discussion forum in terms of activity (well, minus the very active “Trick It” thread).

The Good Deal Premium thread averages about 10 posts per day, however this is misleading as this is a very closely moderated thread with many posts deemed to be “off-topic” deleted. The post count would likely increase due to better visibility, improved organization, and reduced fear of moderator deletion.

Activity in the Mileage Run forum will not be noticeably impacted, since most of the activity that would move to the sub-forum was self-contained inside the mega-thread in the first place.

6. Is this the best place on FlyerTalk for this subject? This is the classification issue. The answer depends primarily on achieving and maintaining critical mass. It also depends on whether or where the discussion might (or does) occur in the absence of the forum.
Yes. In a sense, the mega-thread is a virtual forum inside the Mileage Run forum. While the discussion does occur today without the sub-forum, it occurs in the unwieldy mega-thread, whose format isn’t very popular with users.

7. For proposals to split a forum, is the split expected to improve the signal to noise ratio? Why?
Absolutely. The lack of internal organization in the mega-thread leads to missing out on deals buried within, wading through dozens of posts about deals not of interest to the user in order to find ones that are, and confusion when people discuss multiple deals simultaneously.

Response to Counter-arguments:
There have been several counter-arguments brought up in this discussion thread which I’d like to address.

Counter-argument: (tcook052) “I don't believe further dividing the MR forums would draw enough of a benefit to offset the confusion it would create.”
My response: A sub-forum dedicated to a Good Deal Premium Fare thread should not cause any additional confusion. Currently all of the content that would be posted into the thread is already confined to the mega-thread as it is. How would confining it to its own sub-forum be more confusing?

Counter-Argument: (CMK10) “(T)here's really not that much traffic in MRs as there is, and of the threads I see, I don't think the majority are Premium fares. Also, people seem good about titling these threads correctly so people know they're F/J.”
My response: The proposal is to convert the mega-thread into a sub-forum, so the number of loose threads in the MR forum that relate to Premium Cabin travel is largely irrelevant.

Alternative suggestion: (MSPEconomist) “Alternatives might be to direct posts about premium cabin fare deals to the dedicated fora for the airlines offering such fares or the fora focusing on their alliances.”
My response: While I understand the thinking, this would be detrimental to discussing, searching and finding premium fares. Typically someone will find a fare on a particular airline and post it, others will then jump in trying different airlines and origin/destination points, since often deals are loaded for many routes and airlines often match fares. The mega-thread is beneficial for the cross-germination of ideas and for the effective crowdsourcing of deal searching. I think it will be more effective in the sub-forum, but getting rid of the mega-thread to disperse the conversation into various other fora would be ultimately counter-productive.

SkiAdcock

18sas, thank you very much for your post. It's very informative & helpful to TB members.

Cheers.

kokonutz

Great point, 18sas.

To respond to a couple other points (as I just posted in the private TB forum):

We're not talking about mistake fares there (mostly...they DO pop up from time to time). We are talking about legitimately offered discounted business and first fares.

As smilee points out, the P&M game has changed. No more upgrading from the cheapest fares. No more earning status on cheapie fares. The consequence of this has been a trend toward more business and F seats being sold at a discount, sometimes a deep discount. At some point, the airlines will finally squeeze the concept of the MR out of existence.

FlyerTalk needs to react to this new paradigm by focusing on the best deals the airlines offer anymore. Not mileage run-earned status with upgrades, but discounted premium class tickets.

As for the mistake fares, the blogs post/expose those now anyway. Nothing FT does is going to get them killed any faster than the blogs already do.

SkiAdcock

Given the points made & the change w/ the airlines (shaking fist at sky!) I'm inclined to support this.

Cheers.

kokonutz

So here's the motion I am mulling (with all credit to 18sas):

In order to continue to promote the posting and free discussion of premium fares and to deliver additional value to FlyerTalk users, I move that TalkBoard recommend that the Good Deal Premium Fares mega-thread be closed and replaced with a Good Deal Premium Fare forum, which will be a sub-forum of the Mileage Run forum.

Open to edits, comments, etc.

tcook052

Since that is my quote however unattributed I'll offer some thoughts.

Any time changes are made there is bound to be some confusion about where to find topics as not everyone is as focused on changes as those responding to this thread. I move misplaced posts & threads daily from new and veteran members alike despite all of the stickies indicating where topics belong and expect a further subdivision of MR forums to have the same effect.

Not only would a dedicated sub-forum siphon off premium cabin discussion that should IMHO be discussed in the individual airline fora but it may wind up being as much of a premium cabin forum as a premium fare forum.

If TB wants to make changes I would rather it rename and repurpose existing fora rather than creating new ones. For example, retitle the MR Discussion forum into MR Discussion & Premium Fare forum to let it serve as a venue for both matters.

That is of course merely MHO and as always YMMV.

18sas

My apologies, not slight was intended, but I typed all of this out on a word processor and copy-and-pasted back to FT, so I didn't use the quote button like I normally would. I'll add the attribution.

While I would prefer a separate forum, if we can just make individual posts inside an existing but renamed forum, that would be a reasonable alternative.

ETA: And also please understand that I am 100% absolutely appreciative of your help moderating the Good Deal Premium Fares thread. It's not the moderation that I have a problem with. It's necessary due to the format of the mega-thread. It's the format of the thread that is at issue for me.

OverThereTooMuch

18sas - Amazing post, thanks for putting that together!

Renaming the forum doesn't solve the core problem here. People need an obvious way to identify the threads relevant to premium travel. Having a subforum is far superior than having to figure out tags/codenames in a thread title.

18sas gave a great example of why having the deals in one forum is significantly more valuable than having them in the individual airline forums - Expanding someone's travel horizons. The benefits of that are great for FT, but extend into the real world as well.

kokonutz

Plus, in the new P&M paradigm, many of us have become airline agnostic. We care more about class of service than the airline it is on.

SkiAdcock

So, should this be a new sub-forum or retitling of the current forum with separate threads for premium fares & why?

Cheers.

tcook052

I'd advocate the latter. The TB reflex seems to be to only create new forums but I'm not sure more is always better including this proposal when the ability to tweak the focus of an existing forum I think could work if given the chance for the following reasons.

In a retitled MR Discussion forum there would be room for members talking about all MR's whether they be in a premium cabin or not as well as current premium and expired fare deals, many of which at present are about premium fares anyway having been moved over upon expiration from MR Deals.

More and more lately the threads posted in MR Discussion are about premium fares as flyers opt for fewer shorter economy MR's due to changing FFP earning in favor of more premium fare deals to qualify or re-qualify for status.

The visibility of premium fare threads would be there in that the only economy fare threads will be clearly labelled as such and have a [FARE GONE] update in the title when moved over from MR Deals forum upon expiration. In a revamped MR Discussion forum any posted premium fare that expires wouldn't have to be moved but simply retitled and left in place making tracking easier while avoiding a separation of dead premium fare and economy fare deals in separate forums. Having one place for members to follow expired deals seems better organization than two, at least to me and YMMV.

In short there is an degree of premium fare discussion in MR Discussion forum already so a change of its focus makes some sense though that's merely my thoughts as a member and long-time forum user.

kokonutz

tcook052, let me see if I understand what you are suggesting in relation to what I am suggesting.

Currently if someone finds a good mileage run deal, they post it in a thread in the MRDeals forum and it gets discussed and analyzed. At some point the fare is finished and the mods move it to the MRDiscussion forum. Is that correct?

Currently if someone finds a great premium fare, it gets posted in the premium fare deal thread where no (or only very little) discussion nor analysis is permitted. Sometimes a separate thread will be created in the MRDiscussion about a premium fare, but typically not.

What I have suggested is creating a new subforum where premium fares can be posted, analyzed and discussed, each fare in its own threads just like mileage run fares currently are in the MRDeals forum before they expire and are moved to the MRDiscussion forum.

What you seem to be suggesting is that the MRDeals forum would allow posting of both threads about a CPM fare deal and about good fares in premium cabins, each fare in its own thread in MRDeals before they expire and are moved to the MRDiscussion forum.

If I have that correct, then I think it might be an acceptable approach, but it would require careful and consistent thread titles, creating additional work for the mods to clean up titles to make it clear if the thread is a economy or premium cabin deal.

Because the advantage (and I personally think it's a huge one) of a separate forum for premium fares is that it will be perfectly clear that every thread in that (sub)forum is about premium fares.

Either way, the fare thread can end up in the same MRDiscussion subforum once the fare expires.

Is that what you were thinking? If so, how do you feel about the need for clear, consistent thread titles pointing out whether the thread is about an economy or premium fare if they are mingled in the same forum?