View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Jan 9, 2015, 5:45 pm
#511
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,620
Jan 10, 2015, 12:53 am
#512
Moderator, Hilton Honors
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: on a short leash
Programs: some
Posts: 71,422
^^
--
Also, I think the deliberate non-inclusion of a "dislike" or "unhelpful" button will limit the harmful effects of any gaming that may go on. I don't understand the (fortunately few) people who have advocated for the inclusion of such in this thread.
I really think people should quit bringing up the "horrendous scandal" that happened back in RP's days with the reputation feature. It's comparing apples-to-oranges. The old one had a vote-up/vote-down feature and applied to the member himself/herself across FT. The new system as it's being proposed only has the ability to leave positive feedback on a specific post. If post ratings are applied to posts only and not to members, and if the worst thing that can happen is that someone's post does not get voted up, then I really fail to see how such scandalous behavior can possibly ensue.
--
Also, I think the deliberate non-inclusion of a "dislike" or "unhelpful" button will limit the harmful effects of any gaming that may go on. I don't understand the (fortunately few) people who have advocated for the inclusion of such in this thread.
I really think people should quit bringing up the "horrendous scandal" that happened back in RP's days with the reputation feature. It's comparing apples-to-oranges. The old one had a vote-up/vote-down feature and applied to the member himself/herself across FT. The new system as it's being proposed only has the ability to leave positive feedback on a specific post. If post ratings are applied to posts only and not to members, and if the worst thing that can happen is that someone's post does not get voted up, then I really fail to see how such scandalous behavior can possibly ensue.
Jan 10, 2015, 5:04 am
#513
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Sunny SYDNEY!
Programs: UA Million Miler. (1.9M) Virgin Platinum. HH Diamond + SPG Gold
Posts: 32,330
If such a juvenile system is adopted, there MUST be an option for any members bored with such irrelevant sideshows to turn it OFF from Day #1 as was a clear option with the total flop "FRIENDS" feature we already have had for years, that serves no purpose either. IB cannot tell us THAT was possible to opt out of, and this is not. Nonsense. I own a very large board with over 4 million posts and the software and free Mods offer endless options in those regards.
It earns nobody a single mile or point and that is WHAT FT'ers are here for. THAT is what makes this board great - we avoid sorority gimmicks. Even avatars are not approved.
If I need to know what anyone had for breakfast, or what colour shoes that wore today, I'll join their twitter feed. Don't hold your breath for that to occur.
Jan 10, 2015, 5:55 am
#514
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: London
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 834
I think a 'like' button is the perfect way to make a contribution to the board and how appreciation for those who have taken the trouble to post, without having to elongate the thread unecessarily. It would allow those who rarely comment to take a more active participation in the board if they wish ....
I would welcome the button and would enjoy using it...
I hope it happens and can't see why it would be a problem.
I would welcome the button and would enjoy using it...
I hope it happens and can't see why it would be a problem.
Jan 10, 2015, 6:12 am
#515
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 51,042
^^
--
Also, I think the deliberate non-inclusion of a "dislike" or "unhelpful" button will limit the harmful effects of any gaming that may go on. I don't understand the (fortunately few) people who have advocated for the inclusion of such in this thread.
I really think people should quit bringing up the "horrendous scandal" that happened back in RP's days with the reputation feature. It's comparing apples-to-oranges. The old one had a vote-up/vote-down feature and applied to the member himself/herself across FT. The new system as it's being proposed only has the ability to leave positive feedback on a specific post. If post ratings are applied to posts only and not to members, and if the worst thing that can happen is that someone's post does not get voted up, then I really fail to see how such scandalous behavior can possibly ensue.
--
Also, I think the deliberate non-inclusion of a "dislike" or "unhelpful" button will limit the harmful effects of any gaming that may go on. I don't understand the (fortunately few) people who have advocated for the inclusion of such in this thread.
I really think people should quit bringing up the "horrendous scandal" that happened back in RP's days with the reputation feature. It's comparing apples-to-oranges. The old one had a vote-up/vote-down feature and applied to the member himself/herself across FT. The new system as it's being proposed only has the ability to leave positive feedback on a specific post. If post ratings are applied to posts only and not to members, and if the worst thing that can happen is that someone's post does not get voted up, then I really fail to see how such scandalous behavior can possibly ensue.
Jan 10, 2015, 6:26 am
#516
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Programs: UALifetimePremierGold, Marriott LifetimeTitanium
Posts: 71,107
I
I have only sent a couple of PMs to one member on this issue, and that was only to gain a better understanding of his or her point of view. Nobody has PM'ed me either. I don't know why anyone would lobby on a such a minor matter. It's not something crucial like post count.
I have only sent a couple of PMs to one member on this issue, and that was only to gain a better understanding of his or her point of view. Nobody has PM'ed me either. I don't know why anyone would lobby on a such a minor matter. It's not something crucial like post count.
Any FT member (or TB member) could send out PMs. Obviously this isn't a minor matter. If anything it's more important than post count because it directly impacts FTers viewing & use of FT.
1. Also, I think the deliberate non-inclusion of a "dislike" or "unhelpful" button will limit the harmful effects of any gaming that may go on. I don't understand the (fortunately few) people who have advocated for the inclusion of such in this thread.
2. The new system as it's being proposed only has the ability to leave positive feedback on a specific post. If post ratings are applied to posts only and not to members, and if the worst thing that can happen is that someone's post does not get voted up, then I really fail to see how such scandalous behavior can possibly ensue.
FWIW - I don't think there's enough support & I'm not wildly behind the idea. I just want to point out the fallacy of the argument.2. Actually that's not how the system as it's being proposed. It may be because of input on this thread, but it's not necessarily there yet. And there's no word by IB on whether they can separate it/make it to posts & not attached to members. Heck, the recently concluded trial shows that it does attach to members.
I think a 'like' button is the perfect way to make a contribution to the board and how appreciation for those who have taken the trouble to post, without having to elongate the thread unecessarily. It would allow those who rarely comment to take a more active participation in the board if they wish ....
Cheers.
Jan 10, 2015, 8:07 am
#517
Ambassador, New England
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Maineiac, USA
Programs: Amtrak, WN RR, Choice
Posts: 2,655
Jan 10, 2015, 8:24 am
#518
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Programs: UALifetimePremierGold, Marriott LifetimeTitanium
Posts: 71,107
Cheers.
Jan 10, 2015, 10:11 am
#519
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 51,042
That would be my question... Do mods want to take on that as well? Remember, we've seen posts from some mods in the past generally saying they have a ton of work or similar.
Jan 10, 2015, 10:34 am
#520
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
Also, I think the deliberate non-inclusion of a "dislike" or "unhelpful" button will limit the harmful effects of any gaming that may go on. I don't understand the (fortunately few) people who have advocated for the inclusion of such in this thread.
I really think people should quit bringing up the "horrendous scandal" that happened back in RP's days with the reputation feature. It's comparing apples-to-oranges. The old one had a vote-up/vote-down feature and applied to the member himself/herself across FT. The new system as it's being proposed only has the ability to leave positive feedback on a specific post. If post ratings are applied to posts only and not to members, and if the worst thing that can happen is that someone's post does not get voted up, then I really fail to see how such scandalous behavior can possibly ensue.
I really think people should quit bringing up the "horrendous scandal" that happened back in RP's days with the reputation feature. It's comparing apples-to-oranges. The old one had a vote-up/vote-down feature and applied to the member himself/herself across FT. The new system as it's being proposed only has the ability to leave positive feedback on a specific post. If post ratings are applied to posts only and not to members, and if the worst thing that can happen is that someone's post does not get voted up, then I really fail to see how such scandalous behavior can possibly ensue.
Put differently, if people want to mark a post/poster as "helpful" how does that impact those who -don't- get (or want) such "votes"? If they don't care, shouldn't they just not care?
Jan 10, 2015, 10:47 am
#521
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges and Environmentally Friendly Travel
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 22,212
i don't think this will be an issue TBH since posts are time stamped and of course all great information posted on FT will ultimately lose its relevance over time. I don't recall ever receiving complaints of this nature about short +1 type posts
Jan 10, 2015, 12:41 pm
#522
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S (former 75K, GLD, 1K, and S+, now an elite peon)
Posts: 23,194
1. Well, if helpful is so helpful & won't be gamed as you, nsx & others assure those of us who have the concern that it could be, then by that same argument a nonhelpful won't be gamed either. You can't have it both ways FWIW - I don't think there's enough support & I'm not wildly behind the idea. I just want to point out the fallacy of the argument.
FWIW - I don't think there's enough support & I'm not wildly behind the idea. I just want to point out the fallacy of the argument.If the only option is "Helpful," then the only possible outcomes are that post is shown as being helpful or that post has no rating.
If you have a "Helpful" and a "Not Helpful" option, then there are three possible outcomes: the post is shown as being helpful, the post has no rating, or the post receives a negative score.
In the last case--the post receiving a negative score--you have the potential for that poster to be seen poorly by other members reading the thread. That creates ill-will on the part of the poster towards the members who rated him or her poorly. That creates animosity and the potential for inter-personal conflict.
If the worst that can happen is that your post gets no score, then it's kind of hard for you to get offended and pitch a snit fit about the rating.
It's for this exact reason why Facebook does not have a "dislike" button, and it works quite well there. I have never ONCE seen anyone complain that someone else's posts got more likes than his/her own.
2. Actually that's not how the system as it's being proposed. It may be because of input on this thread, but it's not necessarily there yet. And there's no word by IB on whether they can separate it/make it to posts & not attached to members. Heck, the recently concluded trial shows that it does attach to members.
Jan 10, 2015, 2:33 pm
#523
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
Are some people here still-- with straight face-- seriously standing by these far-out claims of vote-rigging, "sudden, unexplainable change in totals" type-chicanery and "new members registering just to vote in this poll"
?If so, it's equal parts hilarious and completely preposterous. Possibly even with apologies in order from those who made these ridiculous, insulting and 100% unsupported accusations against fellow members just because the poll wasn't going the way they wished.
Jan 10, 2015, 3:22 pm
#524
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 51,042
If you're going to call an argument fallacious, then you need to illustrate why. You didn't do that.
If the only option is "Helpful," then the only possible outcomes are that post is shown as being helpful or that post has no rating.
If you have a "Helpful" and a "Not Helpful" option, then there are three possible outcomes: the post is shown as being helpful, the post has no rating, or the post receives a negative score.
In the last case--the post receiving a negative score--you have the potential for that poster to be seen poorly by other members reading the thread. That creates ill-will on the part of the poster towards the members who rated him or her poorly. That creates animosity and the potential for inter-personal conflict.
If the worst that can happen is that your post gets no score, then it's kind of hard for you to get offended and pitch a snit fit about the rating.
It's for this exact reason why Facebook does not have a "dislike" button, and it works quite well there. I have never ONCE seen anyone complain that someone else's posts got more likes than his/her own.
If the only option is "Helpful," then the only possible outcomes are that post is shown as being helpful or that post has no rating.
If you have a "Helpful" and a "Not Helpful" option, then there are three possible outcomes: the post is shown as being helpful, the post has no rating, or the post receives a negative score.
In the last case--the post receiving a negative score--you have the potential for that poster to be seen poorly by other members reading the thread. That creates ill-will on the part of the poster towards the members who rated him or her poorly. That creates animosity and the potential for inter-personal conflict.
If the worst that can happen is that your post gets no score, then it's kind of hard for you to get offended and pitch a snit fit about the rating.
It's for this exact reason why Facebook does not have a "dislike" button, and it works quite well there. I have never ONCE seen anyone complain that someone else's posts got more likes than his/her own.
Jan 10, 2015, 3:37 pm
#525
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: in the vicinity of SFO
Programs: AA 2MM (LT-PLT, PPro for this year)
Posts: 19,781
I do not see any benefit, and plenty of possible problems with, a "dislike" or "unhelpful" button in the context of a conversational forum.
Given that a separate Q&A section isn't in the cards, I don't think there's any reason to consider that. FWIW, I'd prefer to see a "like"/"thanks"/"helpful" option be non-anonymous (even if you have to click through to see who "liked" it).
As for a difference in who's posted in favor, and the vote counts, look at it this way: one of the benefits for a "like" button is to give a way for people who are less inclined to post a way of saying they appreciated a post. Arguably, it's the same with voting: it's much easier to click "yes" and "submit" on the vote than it is to actually write out an argument in favor.
Given that a separate Q&A section isn't in the cards, I don't think there's any reason to consider that. FWIW, I'd prefer to see a "like"/"thanks"/"helpful" option be non-anonymous (even if you have to click through to see who "liked" it).
As for a difference in who's posted in favor, and the vote counts, look at it this way: one of the benefits for a "like" button is to give a way for people who are less inclined to post a way of saying they appreciated a post. Arguably, it's the same with voting: it's much easier to click "yes" and "submit" on the vote than it is to actually write out an argument in favor.