View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
Signed in members with 90 days / 90 posts can edit this Wikipost; wiki contents may be printed by using the 
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Dec 31, 2014, 8:24 am
#466
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Programs: UALifetimePremierGold, Marriott LifetimeTitanium
Posts: 71,107
I doubt it would do that at first, but it could be added, and would need a basis of posts that were rated in order to function. So, I view a mechanism to rate posts as being a necessary first step towards making massive FT threads useful.
Sure, that's a risk, but the alternative is to either skip the entire massive thread and just post a new question that's likely been answered somewhere in the thread, or read the last page or two of posts and do the same.
Sure, no system is perfect, and likely the people who liked/rated helpful though the information was accurate.
Sure, that's a risk, but the alternative is to either skip the entire massive thread and just post a new question that's likely been answered somewhere in the thread, or read the last page or two of posts and do the same.
Sure, no system is perfect, and likely the people who liked/rated helpful though the information was accurate.
While the people who liked/rated helpful the info, the point is that it wasn't accurate & they're now going to be asking for things that are contradicted by the T&Cs. Not sure how that turns out to be helpful. Also they can't go back & change their helpful to unhelpful when they come across the reality that the information was wrong.
Cheers.
Dec 31, 2014, 11:01 am
#467
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 8,937
While the people who liked/rated helpful the info, the point is that it wasn't accurate & they're now going to be asking for things that are contradicted by the T&Cs. Not sure how that turns out to be helpful. Also they can't go back & change their helpful to unhelpful when they come across the reality that the information was wrong.
Dec 31, 2014, 12:12 pm
#468
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 51,047
In my personal FT experience, I often encounter massive threads when trying to find information. I assume I am far more diligent than most when it comes to searching, yet I am often unable to find information without spending days and days reading through posts (which I sometimes do). If we can make this situation better and make it easier for people to find factual information buried in massive threads, we should. As for the Wiki, I assume by the smilie that you are joking since those tend to be rarely used except for a small number of areas.
Maybe they should be able to go back and undo a 'helpful' vote. On StackExchange one can go back and undo an upvote (or a downvote).
Maybe they should be able to go back and undo a 'helpful' vote. On StackExchange one can go back and undo an upvote (or a downvote).
Dec 31, 2014, 5:40 pm
#469
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 8,937
Now, this entire endeavor might well be a fool's errand. It's certainly possible that FT is hopeless, that human nature being what it is, the state of FT discussion and usefulness as an information resource can never be decent, and we really should give up on it. Being an optimist, I hope this isn't true, but I'm always willing to believe I'm wrong.
Dec 31, 2014, 7:59 pm
#470
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVP, Hhonors Gold, National Executive, Identity Gold, MLife Gold
Posts: 2,687
Without a doubt, Omni PR threads shouldn't have voting options. Topics are too divisive, it will cause far more pain than it's worth. Again, this is not a core part of FT. There's a nasty discussion forum under Travel Safety & Security where I'd expect the same sort of behavior to occur.
Similar to the StackExchange rating system for both questions and answers, where a member can upvote or downvote both questions and answers? That could be one way to implement this. I don't have enough experience with StackExchange to be able to say if such a system would be good for FT, but it might be.
). But some people on the internet are apparently very thin skinned, and easily get upset when there are too many downvotes. I've seen many forums where the posters end up just deleting their original content because they're pouting. It also leads to many useless "why are people downvoting this?" discussions.
I think a post rating system could be implemented that would be completely independent of poster reputation, and I'd encourage such a mechanism to be completely divorced from it.
Do you have a suggestion on how you could split these two apart?
A poster who provides helpful, solid information in one forum might not do the same in another forum.
Hopefully a system like this would catch those folks too, and action could be taken to show those folks the door.
this entire endeavor might well be a fool's errand.
Without an understanding of some key pieces - mainly how these votes will be used/what value they'll bring - it's hard to paint a picture of what the potential up/down sides might be. That's why there's so much speculation in this thread, which is just causing confusion. I know I'm adding to it, but it's based off my experience on other boards with voting capabilities (fatwallet and slickdeals being the main ones), and the reactions users have there.
Jan 1, 2015, 12:53 pm
#471
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 1999
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 15,352
I just don't see why this is necessary or even desirable.
Jan 1, 2015, 4:23 pm
#472
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 8,937
I agree that some sort of filtering based on votes is needed. The devil will be in the details here. Basically we'll get whatever IB already has implemented in vB...take it or leave it. It would be great to see an example of a vB forum using something like this (native solutions only, not custom/plugins), so we can all get a better understanding of how it's used.
Without an understanding of some key pieces - mainly how these votes will be used/what value they'll bring - it's hard to paint a picture of what the potential up/down sides might be. That's why there's so much speculation in this thread, which is just causing confusion. I know I'm adding to it, but it's based off my experience on other boards with voting capabilities (fatwallet and slickdeals being the main ones), and the reactions users have there.
My suggestion for goals:
- Rank posts, not members
- Able to be enabled per-forum (maybe per-thread)
- Allow viewing threads that hides posts below a threshold
Jan 1, 2015, 4:50 pm
#473
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVP, Hhonors Gold, National Executive, Identity Gold, MLife Gold
Posts: 2,687
Like you say, we need to understand the goals.
Of course there are many such members, but I'd strongly suggest that any mechanism for ranking posts not have a goal of discouraging such members. That's a different job for a different mechanism.
I think it would be OK to implement this in stages
Jan 1, 2015, 7:16 pm
#474
Moderator Hilton Honors, Travel News, West, The Suggestion Box, Smoking Lounge & DiningBuzz
Join Date: Jun 2000
Programs: Honors Diamond, Hertz Presidents Circle, National Exec Elite
Posts: 36,026
Jan 1, 2015, 8:03 pm
#475
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 8,937
Depends on which feature and which goals.
A mechanism to "like" a post? I don't see it as useful. I see it as a social media tool.
A mechanism to rank a post (e.g., as 'helpful')? I see it as a foundation for a subsequent feature to allow filtered views of long threads so that only high-rated posts are visible. Combined, this can be a real leap forward in FT usability with large threads that contain useful information scattered among thousands of discussion posts.
A mechanism to "like" a post? I don't see it as useful. I see it as a social media tool.
A mechanism to rank a post (e.g., as 'helpful')? I see it as a foundation for a subsequent feature to allow filtered views of long threads so that only high-rated posts are visible. Combined, this can be a real leap forward in FT usability with large threads that contain useful information scattered among thousands of discussion posts.
Jan 1, 2015, 8:28 pm
#476
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: May 2002
Location: YEG
Programs: HH Silver
Posts: 56,446
A mechanism to rank a post (e.g., as 'helpful')? I see it as a foundation for a subsequent feature to allow filtered views of long threads so that only high-rated posts are visible. Combined, this can be a real leap forward in FT usability with large threads that contain useful information scattered among thousands of discussion posts.
Jan 2, 2015, 2:15 am
#477
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Sunny SYDNEY!
Programs: UA Million Miler. (1.9M) Virgin Platinum. HH Diamond + SPG Gold
Posts: 32,330
Amen. As others have posted some of us are older than 18, and do not seek or need fake clique endorsements from others. Facebook is already invented, for just that purpose.
I've never bothered with Facebook, but have made 31,000 posts here as FT is about Miles and Points not outlining what I had for breakfast, or what friends I was having dinner with last night etc, or what colour shoes I am wearing today.
Well if TB even does get to a vote on this, I hope the voting wording includes this -
"If the motion is successful, any member can opt to be excluded from this 'feature' altogether".
The near total failure of a similar thing FT has had for years - "FRIENDS" is still there, and luckily members were also able to opt out of that Circus from Day #1, and so it should be if this unneeded sideshow ever gets to a vote.
I've never bothered with Facebook, but have made 31,000 posts here as FT is about Miles and Points not outlining what I had for breakfast, or what friends I was having dinner with last night etc, or what colour shoes I am wearing today.
Well if TB even does get to a vote on this, I hope the voting wording includes this -
"If the motion is successful, any member can opt to be excluded from this 'feature' altogether".
The near total failure of a similar thing FT has had for years - "FRIENDS" is still there, and luckily members were also able to opt out of that Circus from Day #1, and so it should be if this unneeded sideshow ever gets to a vote.
Jan 2, 2015, 10:14 am
#478
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
Just FYI (I think it has been mentioned upstream already): the current vB "like" facility can not be restricted to or from certain fora. It's pretty much an all or nothing option.
Jan 2, 2015, 2:01 pm
#479
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
I hope it remains that way, if this feature gets turned on for wider use on FT than the had-trial.
Jan 2, 2015, 3:09 pm
#480
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 51,047