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"Like" Button?

View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll

Old Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.

Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable

Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]

Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
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"Like" Button?

 
Old Dec 20, 2014, 10:37 am
  #301  
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I'm not sure why this would be any more "grade-school competition-like" then post counts, and weird "posting statuses."

A "like" button would seriously cut down on the "+1" posts or the purely "^" posts, which is really helpful when reading FT on a mobile device or with slow, public WiFi.
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Old Dec 20, 2014, 11:16 am
  #302  
 
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Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri
notifications definitely need to be able to be disabled

but if notifications for PMs cant be disabled...

Here's what that area of our forum looks like. On FT you'll find the area here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/profi...do=editoptions

Code:
 This forum features a private messaging system, which allows members to send messages to one another privately.

If you do not want to send or receive private messages, you may disable the private messaging system.
Enable Private Messaging

You may limit the receipt of private messages to just moderators and your contacts. Other members who attempt to send messages to you will be told that you have disabled private messaging.
Receive Private Messages only from Contacts and Moderators

The forum can send a message to your email address to inform you when someone sends you a private message.
Receive Email Notification of New Private Messages

If you are browsing the forums when you receive a new private message, the system can pop-up a notification box informing you of the new message.
Show New Private Message Notification Pop-up

When sending private messages the forum can make a copy of the message in your Sent Items folder.
Save a copy of sent messages in my Sent Items folder by default

    Likes Notifications:
        Enable Likes Notifications
        Disable Likes Notifications
There's a radio button to disable likes notifications.

I noted, from reading another thread, that an administration test of the like system has been begun. The 'likes received/given' in one's profile appears similar to that on our forum.

I don't know if IB is going to code anything custom but vBulletin.org has coders and hacks which have provided custom likes systems for the software. Our forum uses a standard hack/plugin which the site owner installed back in late 2011 and it's remained unchanged since.

Last edited by camachinist; Dec 20, 2014 at 11:20 am Reason: Add link to profile options area
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Old Dec 20, 2014, 4:34 pm
  #303  
 
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This is a bad idea.

Sometimes, there's bad content

If you have a way to like a post, you need to have an equivalent way to "unlike" a post. That's the only way the community can truly have input on whether or not content is valuable. People post bad info here all the time. Many times, it's based off personal opinion and not facts. Which is fine, as long as the post is clear that it's an opinion.

Not clear how it will be used

I think there are many ways that having a like/dislike option associated with a post can be valuable. But today, there's no plan mentioned for how this will be used.
Will there be some sort of "award" for the most valuable content in a forum?
Will this be used as criteria for selecting forum mods/ambassadors?
Will there be a way to filter to only see content of a certain level?

Instead, I think it'll be used by people who think these things matter on the internet (the same ones that feel their post count actually matters), and they will be recruiting all of their friends to form a "mutual admiration society" where they all just "Like" each others posts, no matter what the content. I would consider that an abuse of the system. FT would need to have clear policies in place for abuses like this. It will require additional mod time to perform these sorts of investigations.

If you don't have a clear plan in place for how it will be used/abused, then you shouldn't implement it.

There's no clear benefit to FT

There's no mention in this proposal of why FT thinks it is needed, or what value they believe it brings to FT.

Potential for abuse
In addition to the abuse described above, an admin for another forum has posted real-life experience of how it can be abused:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23873665-post111.html

Other options

If you're going to implement some variant of it, I would be in favor of the solution proposed here - http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23873665-post111.html. I think there should be additional discussion on what the categories for the voting options would be, but otherwise I agree with all of the advantages/disadvantages described here.

It also NEEDS to be anonymous, or you will have drama.

Every forum that has added/changed this sort of functionality after going without it for years has experienced pain. I encourage you to look at the history of some big boards that have done this, and see what you can learn from their growing pains.

I also "dislike" the idea of having a link to every thread I've "liked" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...-profiles.html.
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Old Dec 21, 2014, 12:53 am
  #304  
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I purposely edited the content under each sub-title for the sake of brevity only!

Originally Posted by OverThereTooMuch
This is a bad idea.

Sometimes, there's bad content
True, but there's no requirement of a dislike button. More often than not, when someone disagrees with a post, they post WHY they disagree. Contrast that with the myriad of posts that have nothing more than "+1" or "+100000" (plus the quoted OP since a post must have at least 5 characters)

Facebook doesn't have a dislike button, and while I feel there may be a need somewhat on Facebook, I still believe that there's less of a need here

Not clear how it will be used
I don't think there's a need for awards, just as there's no awards today for actually helpful post and/or frequent posters. The award or reward is knowing that you've helped people. Perhaps you can add something (akin to the "FlyerTalk Evangelist") such as "Super Helpful Poster" after he/she gets numerous thanks or likes to their posts. That does give value, and I would argue that that gives significantly more value to other posters than a FT posting title. (Who do you trust more, inherently? A "FlyerTalk Posting Legend" with nothing else, or a measly "FlyerTalk Evangelist" that's also a "Super Helpful Poster?")

There's no clear benefit to FT
Sure there is - it helps significantly cut down clutter AND can in the long-term, if rolled out right, give more value to others by knowing that said poster is really helpful. For example, I know that WineCountryUA is one of the most helpful posters out there on the UA forum. Not only does he/she answer tons of posts, but does so quickly, continues to provide information, and that information is invariably correct. But I am active on said forum.

For someone coming over from a different forum, or a newbie on FT, knowing that WineCountryUA was a "Super Helpful Poster" would help give more weight to said posts.

Potential for abuse
I'd argue that shows the benefit to a "like" button just the same, if not more so. I agree OMNI/PR could be a problem, but why throw out the baby with the bathwater?

Other options
Not sure if intentional or not, but the link posted was the same. Do you mean that the same admin was showing both a potential for abuse and another option, or did you mean to post 2 different links?

I also "dislike" the idea of having a link to every thread I've "liked" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...-profiles.html.
I'm not seeing this. Is this something visible to everyone? (Meaning, can I see your like stats?)
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Old Dec 21, 2014, 4:53 am
  #305  
 
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I'm ambivalent about this, as there are definetely downsides (on other forums, you see people posting contoversial opinions or pointless attempts at humour just to get "likes").

However, to me the most useful aspect of having a "helpful" (far better term for FT than "like" IMO) button is so that I can later track the posts that I have found helpful. Sometimes you see a very useful piece of advice, which you don't need now but may need later. By flagging it as "helpful", you can then easily search it later from your own profile. This exists on moneysavingexpert.com, which appears to use the same technology as FT. There are a lot of pointless "thanks" on there though.

For me it would be enough if I was the only one who could see which posts I had found helpful, I don't need to see what others have liked, nor is it important to me to see my own posts liked (though I hope they are of some use to others).
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Old Dec 21, 2014, 6:24 am
  #306  
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Originally Posted by joshwex90
I don't think there's a need for awards, just as there's no awards today for actually helpful post and/or frequent posters. The award or reward is knowing that you've helped people. Perhaps you can add something (akin to the "FlyerTalk Evangelist") such as "Super Helpful Poster" after he/she gets numerous thanks or likes to their posts. That does give value, and I would argue that that gives significantly more value to other posters than a FT posting title. (Who do you trust more, inherently? A "FlyerTalk Posting Legend" with nothing else, or a measly "FlyerTalk Evangelist" that's also a "Super Helpful Poster?")

I'm not seeing this. Is this something visible to everyone? (Meaning, can I see your like stats?)
I cut your post to address just a few things...

Adding a title like "Super Helpful Poster" will only serve to drive the misuse of a button. Then, you'll have people with that title who don't give correct information.

The "like" button is currently not visible to anyone but TB members, admins, and moderators.
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Old Dec 21, 2014, 6:55 am
  #307  
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Originally Posted by OverThereTooMuch
This is a bad idea.

Sometimes, there's bad content

If you have a way to like a post, you need to have an equivalent way to "unlike" a post. That's the only way the community can truly have input on whether or not content is valuable. People post bad info here all the time. Many times, it's based off personal opinion and not facts. Which is fine, as long as the post is clear that it's an opinion.

Not clear how it will be used

I think there are many ways that having a like/dislike option associated with a post can be valuable. But today, there's no plan mentioned for how this will be used.
Will there be some sort of "award" for the most valuable content in a forum?
Will this be used as criteria for selecting forum mods/ambassadors?
Will there be a way to filter to only see content of a certain level?

Instead, I think it'll be used by people who think these things matter on the internet (the same ones that feel their post count actually matters), and they will be recruiting all of their friends to form a "mutual admiration society" where they all just "Like" each others posts, no matter what the content. I would consider that an abuse of the system. FT would need to have clear policies in place for abuses like this. It will require additional mod time to perform these sorts of investigations.

If you don't have a clear plan in place for how it will be used/abused, then you shouldn't implement it.

There's no clear benefit to FT

There's no mention in this proposal of why FT thinks it is needed, or what value they believe it brings to FT.

Potential for abuse
In addition to the abuse described above, an admin for another forum has posted real-life experience of how it can be abused:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23873665-post111.html

Other options

If you're going to implement some variant of it, I would be in favor of the solution proposed here - http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23873665-post111.html. I think there should be additional discussion on what the categories for the voting options would be, but otherwise I agree with all of the advantages/disadvantages described here.

It also NEEDS to be anonymous, or you will have drama.

Every forum that has added/changed this sort of functionality after going without it for years has experienced pain. I encourage you to look at the history of some big boards that have done this, and see what you can learn from their growing pains.

I also "dislike" the idea of having a link to every thread I've "liked" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...-profiles.html.
Well said.

Originally Posted by joshwex90

1. True, but there's no requirement of a dislike button. More often than not, when someone disagrees with a post, they post WHY they disagree. Contrast that with the myriad of posts that have nothing more than "+1" or "+100000" (plus the quoted OP since a post must have at least 5 characters)

2. I don't think there's a need for awards, just as there's no awards today for actually helpful post and/or frequent posters. The award or reward is knowing that you've helped people. Perhaps you can add something (akin to the "FlyerTalk Evangelist") such as "Super Helpful Poster" after he/she gets numerous thanks or likes to their posts. That does give value, and I would argue that that gives significantly more value to other posters than a FT posting title. (Who do you trust more, inherently? A "FlyerTalk Posting Legend" with nothing else, or a measly "FlyerTalk Evangelist" that's also a "Super Helpful Poster?")

3. Sure there is - it helps significantly cut down clutter AND can in the long-term, if rolled out right, give more value to others by knowing that said poster is really helpful. For example, I know that WineCountryUA is one of the most helpful posters out there on the UA forum. Not only does he/she answer tons of posts, but does so quickly, continues to provide information, and that information is invariably correct. But I am active on said forum.

For someone coming over from a different forum, or a newbie on FT, knowing that WineCountryUA was a "Super Helpful Poster" would help give more weight to said posts.
1. Wait, you forget that, if by chance this is implemented, the button will be 'helpful'. So why not have a 'non-helpful' button? FTers post incorrect information all the time. I've seen 'likes' given on a BB board to a post that was absolutely incorrect (which is one reason I don't have much faith in the like button). So if information is incorrect, then why not have a 'non-helpful' button so that FTers will know the information isn't helpful? (One reason would be that both like/dislike & helpful/helpful can be gamed - and has been in the past on FT).

You're also making the erroneous assumption that +1, +1000, :-: will go away. That's not the case. People will still post those. Sure, some will use the like but others won't, so the bit about this will suddenly reduce real estate isn't accurate IMO.

2. Just as FTers go for titles (hey, this is a BB that deals with status), some will go for the title of super helpful poster even if they aren't necessarily. It's very easy to game.

I'd recommend you read the titles thread in this forum if you want to know how hot potatoes titles are; the same could be said for at what point of likes is someone considered helpful, mildly helpful, really helpful, super-duper wildly helpful. We don't need additional titles.

I can't speak for others, but what matters to me is the content being posted, not how many likes it has or if someone has a super helpful title or evangalist or legend under their handle.

Originally Posted by Oaxaca
I'm ambivalent about this, as there are definetely downsides (on other forums, you see people posting contoversial opinions or pointless attempts at humour just to get "likes").

However, to me the most useful aspect of having a "helpful" (far better term for FT than "like" IMO) button is so that I can later track the posts that I have found helpful. Sometimes you see a very useful piece of advice, which you don't need now but may need later. By flagging it as "helpful", you can then easily search it later from your own profile. This exists on moneysavingexpert.com, which appears to use the same technology as FT. There are a lot of pointless "thanks" on there though.

For me it would be enough if I was the only one who could see which posts I had found helpful
I don't think it's going to work the way you would like it to (at least in its current format). From those who can see likes currently in their profile, it just has # of likes given/received - NOT where the likes are.

If you find a post particularly helpful one thing you can do is bookmark the post or just copy it into a word doc. I've done both.

Originally Posted by kipper
I cut your post to address just a few things...

1. Adding a title like "Super Helpful Poster" will only serve to drive the misuse of a button. Then, you'll have people with that title who don't give correct information.

2. The "like" button is currently not visible to anyone but TB members, admins, and moderators.
1. Agree.

2. Agree. Only only those 3 groups have the ability to give likes as the feature is currently enabled for a trial. However, all FTers have the likes given/received showing in their profiles as evidently that aspect was turned on for everyone.

Cheers.
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Old Dec 21, 2014, 7:04 am
  #308  
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Do FT members really need FT to have a popularity contest to help them determine for themselves who/what on FT they like or not? I think that most people are capable of judging for theselves without the "crutch"/stick of this popularity contest. Either way, is this "like/helpful" thing really about wanting another scoring and gaming system on FT to publicly rate FTers whom we like or not? It seems designed to do just that.

Are moderators going to be able to strip away "like/helpful/thanks" from a given post/poster? Are moderators going to be able to mask targeted FTers from these "like/helpful/thanks" posting powers? Will people be suspended/banned/disabled for marking "unhelpful" posts as "helpful"?

Not everyone's idea of what or how something is "helpful" is the same, so why or under what circumstances should or will FT members be punished for using this proposed feature?

There are so many unanswered questions and such questionable benefit from this proposed feature being turned on for all of us ordinary FTers that I say this: "don't vote for change which you can't believe".
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Old Dec 21, 2014, 9:14 am
  #309  
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The title was just as an example.

But how would it be abused? If I mark something as "helpful," that doesn't mean anything for me. The abuse would really be if people agree to "like" your post if you "like" my post. Do you really think that would happen though?
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Old Dec 21, 2014, 9:30 am
  #310  
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Originally Posted by joshwex90
The title was just as an example.

But how would it be abused? If I mark something as "helpful," that doesn't mean anything for me. The abuse would really be if people agree to "like" your post if you "like" my post. Do you really think that would happen though?
Absolutely, I think there would be a "I'll like your post if you like my post," trade. I see it on other boards where I'm active.
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Old Dec 21, 2014, 9:31 am
  #311  
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Originally Posted by kipper
Absolutely, I think there would be a "I'll like your post if you like my post," trade. I see it on other boards where I'm active.
I'll take your word for that - and that's really sad and childish unfortunately
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Old Dec 21, 2014, 11:41 am
  #312  
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Originally Posted by kipper
Absolutely, I think there would be a "I'll like your post if you like my post," trade. I see it on other boards where I'm active.
I'm against this button for a number of reasons, but I think this hypothesis is a bit too far fetched.
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Old Dec 21, 2014, 11:52 am
  #313  
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If a post is especially worthy/helpful - then the topic should be in a Wiki or "Everything You Always Wanted to Know..." thread.

Anything else is just trying to be Facebook or gauge popularity. That is not what FT is about.
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Old Dec 21, 2014, 12:00 pm
  #314  
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Originally Posted by Oaxaca
...
However, to me the most useful aspect of having a "helpful" (far better term for FT than "like" IMO) button is so that I can later track the posts that I have found helpful. Sometimes you see a very useful piece of advice, which you don't need now but may need later. By flagging it as "helpful", you can then easily search it later from your own profile.
...
Very interesting use case even though it is quite different from the intended function suggested here.
I think this idea should be moved separately. It is a "tag for later reading" or "save to my personal list of interesting things" function. Could be a very useful function, because we all have been there I guess. Remebering seeing a useful post, but not remebering exactly the content or where to find it.
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Old Dec 21, 2014, 1:26 pm
  #315  
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Originally Posted by joshwex90
The award or reward is knowing that you've helped people.
THIS. So totally this.

I think you've identified the nugget of why I've been in favor of this proposal for a very long time.

Why do people post things? Why do they give back to the community? Because people like to know that they're helping people. The people who post helpful answers on FlyerTalk are doing it for the satisfaction of knowing that they are helping people and the reputation in the community that brings.

I think this proposal has the potential to substantially increase the amount of helpful content posted. It has the potential to motivate some of those knowledgeable travelers who have sat on the sidelines of FT to actually take the time to post helpful answers, because now instead of a nebulous "I think I'm helping people," people can actually easily get acknowledgment of their helpful posts and a concrete and specific "thanks" for that content.

I know for sure receiving "helpful" votes would motivate me to make sure I'm posting the best, most comprehensive answers I can and taking the time to post where I might otherwise be lazy and say, "I'll leave it for someone else to answer."

Why do I post on Facebook? I don't actually post very much--an occasional comment on someone's status and a relatively rare status update of my own. But when I do, it feels good to get a lot of "likes." I'm a bit disappointed when something I post that I think is interesting or profound or noteworthy ends up not generating much discussion or many "likes." If something I post goes semi-viral (among my few hundred friends, at least), it feels really good and makes me want to engage even more with them and continue to post interesting content. The same concept applies here.

On a separate note, I just have to chuckle to myself and make the observation that of the several people involved in this debate whom I know personally and are friends with on Facebook, I find it interesting that two who oppose it consist of one person who liberally "likes" literally everything I (and everyone else) posts, even if that person disagrees with it, and one other person who almost never "likes" things I post, even if I think that person agrees with my post or finds its interesting, and the lack of a response from that person sometimes disappoints me (I make it a point to "like" things I find interesting or engaging as a way of showing appreciation for the time they took to post something of interest). I find it a bit odd that the former person is so against this concept considering the use of "likes" on Facebook; the second person's position is less surprising to me although a bit disappointing.

Last edited by jackal; Dec 21, 2014 at 1:52 pm
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