nsx

koko, that's a good start.

1. Are there other subjects you see for this forum?

2. Do you agree that the charter for the forum should explicitly prohibit blog-bashing or blog-fawning, defined as immoderate opinions with little or no objectively factual content? For example, no posts saying "travel writer E***** is a clueless idiot because he calls FT'ers scammers".

3. What's your argument that the volume of threads and post will be sufficient to attract and retain readers? This is probably the most crucial question. What data can you gather to give any confidence that the new forum will be a success. Are we really limited to "try it and find out"? As the main proponent, you should be able to do better than that.

tom911

I hope the Talk Board members give this post a little extra weight being that it's coming from a moderator that's currently handling the blog megathread in his forum. That thread currently has 2,334 posts in it. How much larger will it get before an alternative needs to be considered? A blog forum is the best alternative on the floor right now.

tcook052

I agree and since our opinions on the topic have been solicited mine is against creating such a forum as it seems to me a case of the tail wagging the dog though that is merely MHO.

NYBanker

For-profit blogs should be treated similarly to KVS/ExpertFlyer/etc. (I don't have a view as to if KVS/etc are treated rightly or wrongly at present.)

They both provide a service which is valuable to at least some FT members, and both have the same motivations.

Jenbel

Of course I can have it both ways. I'm human And since this is my first interjection on the subject, this is my only view so far. You seem to be attributing to me a position I have not taken. Perhaps because I support the forum idea, and you are opposed, so you are assuming I sign up to all the arguments in favour?

I just think it would be a good idea to have a dedicated place to discuss blogs, given the plethora which are now out there which are related to the acquistion of points and miles. If you, as a blogger, are not prepared to accept criticism (and I would differentiate between criticism and abuse) for what you are blogging then you should not be blogging. The cynic in me suggests you are unhappy with the forum idea though because that may draw traffic from your blog. I haven't read your blog, I would hope that I'm just being cynical and this is not your position and that if your blog is valuable, then it shouldn't see a loss of readership.

SkiAdcock

I had posted in the other thread the questions we ask other FTers to answer when considering new forums (and one of them is what you're asking), but koko didn't answer them (which as an aside, isn't really fair to other FTers who we ask to do so).

FWIW - given that TB has only closed one forum (the seniors forum) since I've been a member, I'm not a fan of the 'let's try it & we can always close it if it doesn't work' train of thought as it doesn't really happen. I'm more a proponent of 'let's make a strong case for the forum being created in the first place' train of thought.

For the record I've voted no on this. I stated my reasons in both threads, but to recap:

* I don't think there will be volume of threads to justify the creation of a new forum. Part of that is based on looking at Milesbuzz where there really aren't many threads re: bloggers, certainly not enough if we were considering a new forum such as airline or region, for us to vote yes.
* I think it's a solution looking for a problem.
* I have a legit concern that the forum will bog down in nastiness such as witnessed in the closed threads re: bloggers that do exist in Milesbuzz (acknowledging that mods will be tasked w/ monitoring)
* Bloggers usually post about credit card sign-ups, & we have a credit card forum for threads re: that, or they blog about airline/car rental/hotel programs & we have forums for those threads, or if it's a general travel blog/blog post, there's Travelbuzz so there are already appropriate forums that exist to handle such things
* There doesn't seem to be a huge clamoring for this forum by FTers, based on # of posts in both threads & those who have responded are about equally divided between yes & no, so other than koko really, really wanting it, I don't see a strong desire by FTers for the forum

There are a couple other reasons, but boarding for flight is going to start in a few minutes so I need to sign off.

Cheers.

seanthepilot

My first opinion on this proposal was positive. I think it's a good idea. And the discussion supported that, ^ talking about allowing both positive and negative comments, mixed in with some promotion of the site and maybe feedback from the operator.

How does it add value to Flyertalk? By providing an avenue to discuss this segment of the travel advice market, an avenue to discuss what Flyertalkers have on their minds.... and bloggers are on our minds (for both positive and negative reasons). Adding FT to the place where this information can be found. (I will tell you for sure, I spend much more time on the bloggers sites these days and less time than ever on FT.) This adds to FT by keeping my/our eyes on FT.

The more I think about it, and the evolving comments, I am sure that FT will treat this like they have other commercial ventures, allowing only the positive dribble, and deleting any criticism. An edited blogger forum would just be a farce, you may as well sell paid space. An honest Blogger Forum would allow for both positive and negative, and be a benefit to the membership.

lo2e

(bolding mine)

I strongly disagree with what I bolded in your post to the point where constructive criticism of a company or other entity for travel-related things has never (as far as I've been aware for my 12 years of membership) been censored. Criticism of individuals with regards to non-travel-related things has been and should continue to be, in my opinion.

I will admit that I was originally against this idea, but I have warmed up to it over the last week or so. There are blogs that can actually be helpful to the common good of points and travel in general, and I'm really not sure which ones to trust or not. A forum, while it could be a potential mosh pit if given the chance, could be very helpful to me and the type of travel I am interested in.

goalie

For transparency, I have voted "no" on this motion

tom911

Did you see the post by the Miles Buzz moderator about his merging those topics into a megathread? I'm not sure you would see a list of assorted topics in that forum unless he stops merging. Actually, maybe that's a backup solution if this motion doesn't pass. Just leave all the individual blog topics in Miles Buzz as stand-alone topics and don't merge them. Maybe the moderator will consider that as an option.

mia

I am one of the MilesBuzz! moderators.

There have been a dozen threads on this topic. About four have been permanently closed. The others have withered in the usual fashion, and one is currently active.

If you were to read all of those threads, you would find a substantial amount of feedback that a serious mileage blogger should find valuable. Unfortunately, mixed in with this has been some of the worst abuse that I have read on FlyerTalk. The moderators have not removed criticism of blog content, but we have had to deal with comments about bloggers' personal appearance, their families, sexual orientation, and personal ethics. Multiple forms of personal attack have been employed including ridicule, mocking, baiting, mischaracterization, and other forms of provocation. The thread is a magnet for duplicate handles which some have used to submit posts which they apparently knew violated FlyerTalk's terms.

This misconduct has poisoned the atmosphere, and you will find very little constructive engagement between bloggers and their readers. Bloggers who do join these threads are interrogated about specific blog articles, but the discussion is not about the accuracy or helpfulness of their content, but rather about their motives. These are not isolated occurrences, a dozen posts were removed this week.

I think it would be to FlyerTalk's advantage to host these threads somewhere other than MilesBuzz!, but unless we can create an atmosphere in which the mileage bloggers feel comfortable discussing their work product I do not foresee that we will have added value to this community.

tom911

One of the blogs is covering the Talk Board vote:
http://boardingarea.com/blogs/milesf...yertalk-blogs/

ma91pmh

Each and every member of TalkBoard should print this out, frame it and place it on whichever wall they look at the most. This is the best response I have seen anywhere to what is the obvious sub-plot of this motion and that is to create a blog-bashing playground.

And as has been mentioned before the MilesBuzz! threads are dominated by a small group of people, some of whom are on here, that add no value outside of constant complaining about everything bloggers do. If there were some real dialogue this thing might have merits, but the simple fact is if a blogger brought about peace in the Middle East or found a cure for cancer, there are a couple of posters there who would be moaning about how they went about it the wrong way.

nsx

The forum creation criteria are not a "procedure". They are in effect a request that people proposing a forum do their homework first to maximize the prospects for a proposal. On several occasions the TalkBoard has had to do the homework ourselves. Sometimes the problem is that quantitative data is simply not obtainable.

If, as mia indicates, blog-bashing posts are inevitable, as is their deletion, then a sandbox for such posts might be appropriate. Even if it's only to allow FT readers to avoid that discussion.

MilesBuzz is a crown jewel of FT. Improving its content is a worthy goal. koko, do you claim garbage removal from MilesBuzz as an advantage of your proposal?

kokonutz

Hey, some ideas are such no-brainers that filling out the OPTIONAL paperwork forms is unnecessary!

Neat, I am famous!!! ^^ Who is that blogger? I thanked him/her there, but would like to thank them here, too! ^

But, again, to address the blog post, I'm not filling out that OPTIONAL paperwork either singularly nor in triplicate because all of those issues have been addressed in the two threads in this forum regarding the issue. Believe it or not, I do have a day job and don't really have the time nor the inclination to summarize these threads for folks. Got a question? Ask it! I and others will answer best we can!


1) Yes, I think there are infinite subjects for this forum...as many subjects as there are blogs, the way they operate, the things they post and the way they post them.

2) I think that posters should be free to express their opinion with regard to the quality of the content, but not the character of the writers. I think it is ok to say, 'this blog has a pattern of pumping affiliate links, it appears to be all about the moe-nay' but not ok to say 'kokonutz is a greedy little affiliate whore.' To me, the line is bright and clear.

3) I do believe there is sufficient interest in discussing blogs that there will be sufficient threads and posts to sustain a forum. As others have noted, there are only a few threads on MBuzz but that is because every thread started there gets mega-threaded into the big thread. And as the forum gets established, i think it will become quite common for folks to discuss blog entries in the new forum rather than on the blog comments section. After all, I want to talk about them with knowledgeable FT posters, not random blog-readers. In terms of quantifiable data, look at the number of posts and views on the mega-thread.

Certainly. And more to the point, points and miles blog discussion does not fit the charter of MBuzz. Especially since the P&M blogs go way beyond just miles and points to include things like cash-back credit cards and manufactured spending. BlogTalk is a unique beast, and deserves its own unique corner of FlyerTalk. And if folks dont want to see it, they can then avoid that forum.


One last thing: while I did make this suggestion, it was not my idea. It was the brilliant idea of hobo13.

But when ANYONE has a good idea to improve FlyerTalk, I do like to think I listen and act on them.