Aviatrix

I've noticed that the "Other European Frequent Flyer Programs" forum seems to be heavily dominated by Aer Lingus these days.

Is it perhaps time for a separate forum?

(Just a thought... and I don't mind if you tell me it's a silly idea!)

N830MH

Yes, TB will take a consideration. I would prefer to stay on EU forum or if they create a new EI forum.

Kagehitokiri

related forum stats - http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...l#post19898183

SkiAdcock

To the OP, it helps TB member when considering new forums if the following questions are answered.

The following are qualitative criteria that the TalkBoard believes are useful to consider when evaluating proposals to create, close, split, or move forums. Whenever a forum change is discussed on the TalkBoard Topics, the TalkBoard encourages posters to fully address these criteria in addition to any other reasons supporting or opposing the change.

1. Will the forum be (or is it now) beneficial to FlyerTalk?

2. Will the new forum benefit a relationship with FlyerTalk? E.g., does the forum provide value for FT members, such as a friendly ear highly placed in the company

3. Is FT the best place to discuss this subject?

4. Is there a passionate following? This is essential in order to provide dedicated expert helpers to get questions answered.

5. Is a critical mass of posts and readers anticipated or existing? We need adequate traffic to keep everyone visiting frequently. One living forum is more valuable than two mostly dead ones.

6. Is this the best place on FlyerTalk for this subject? This is the classification issue. The answer depends primarily on achieving and maintaining critical mass. It also depends on whether or where the discussion might (or does) occur in the absence of the forum.

7. For proposals to split a forum, is the split expected to improve the signal to noise ratio? Why?

Procedural Statements by the TalkBoard

8. The TalkBoard does not anticipate using automatic sunsetting of forums, preferring instead to create forums only when we they are strongly expected to succeed.


Cheers.

Aviatrix

Well... my suggestion (and that's all it is) was merely based on an overall impression of the the "Other European Frequent Flyer Programs" forum. Just looking again now I found that out of 25 threads listed on the first page twelve are about EI - that's nearly half of the most recent threads.

There have been previous occasions, especially in the destination forums, when a new forum was created because a large number of posts in an existing forum were about one specific subject area (the Germany forum is one such example). I appreciate that moderators can't always keep a close eye on everything, and the purpose of the post was to share my perception - i.e., that EI seems to be starting to dominate, and that it might perhaps be worth considering a separate forum either now or in the future if that trend continues.

I didn't realise that feedback from members needs to be presented in the form of an eight-point structured essay....

SkiAdcock

We do appreciate members sharing their perceptions & it will be something for us to consider (in the new year; most are on holiday now).

While an essay isn't necessarily required, it does help TB members when considering new forums & most of the recently proposed forums did provide answers, and then we did further research based on the answers & input from members.

Cheers.

MSPeconomist

My interpretation of the discussion here so far--I guess I should emphasize that I haven't yet formed an opinion--is that the OP is suggesting the creation of the new forum not so much based on there being a rationale for an Aer Lingus forum on FT but more because doing so would be beneficial to the existing Other European Airlines forum, which Aer Lingus tends to dominate to an excessive and possibly detrimental extent. I'm not sure whether the case for the proposed new forum would be stronger if the case could be made from both sides: not only should Aer Lingus have its own forum but also this would be good for Other Airlines and solve the implicit problem that was identified of that forum being swamped by threads about a single carrier.

As I see it, and admittedly I'm new to TB, the suggestion to address certain standard criteria isn't meant to be off-putting but rather reflects the reality that new airline fora have tended to be approved when they have strong advocates. Realistically it can be hard for enough TB members to favor a change when they need to fill in the reasons themselves and most/all of us don't have the time or inclination to invest time in doing lots and lots of research to evaluate every suggestion that is mentioned unless the suggestion represents a rather self-evident good change or unless someone on TB considers it to be something that they are willing to advocate strongly. Maybe the Aer Lingus case should be one of the few self-evident ones, but it's more likely to be considered seriously and approved quickly if those who use or would use the fora in question strongly favor the change and make an effective case for it.

A good starting point might be to post a well-designed survey in the Other European Airlines forum to capture opinion on this issue and see how many FTers (and who) would visit and post in the proposed new forum regularly. You might also want to check whether there are Aer Lingus threads and questions that regularly appear elsewhere, for instance in the Ireland destination forum. If people ask there about the Aer Lingus airport experience (special check in lines, lounges, etc.), Aer Lingus connections, and so forth, that would also be some candidate material for the proposed new forum.

JDiver

MSPeconomist makes some very good points and a good suggestion, IMO.

Some members have good skills at using off-site tools like Survey Monkey, etc. and on FT we have the ability to add a new thread with a relatively basic survey (but more likely to be seen and filled out by members, perhaps) in any Forum.

For members who may wish to try it to determine interest for a new forum or subforum, they can go for it - or if anyone feels they could use some help in setting a survey up, contact the local moderators by using the "Alert a moderator to this post" function. (If the forum has no local moderators the "AMP" will go to the Senior Moderators.)

oliver2002

The simple reason behind it is that AB and the CIS airlines were recently split off into separate forum(s), so traffic in OEFFP nowadays is down to OK, TP and EI topics, with the occassional LCC popping up.

Jenbel

Does this post represent TB's views on polls? For a long time, TB has not been in favour of public votes because you don't get as good quality information about what the members are thinking from a poll as from a thread. Has that situation changed?

MSPeconomist

I assume that this question was directed at me and not JDiver. I don't speak for other TB members and indeed, I haven't discussed this issue with anyone, nor am I aware of any such discussion among TB members. As I see it, it's easy now to create and post a poll, which certainly conveys some information--even if not perfect or a representative scientific sample--if the questions are posed carefully. Indeed, lack of response to a poll that has been "stickied" for a while in the appropriate forum can itself be somewhat informative. These are my personal opinions; I am not attempting to speak for my TB colleagues.

My post was an attempt to clarify the issues (while noting that I haven't yet taken a position on this issue) and suggest to the OP some things that could perhaps make for a more convincing suggestion without requiring a huge investment of time by the OP before posting a suggestion here.

I also suggested that it could be helpful to have the support of some FTers who would presumably be active on the new forum, such as those who already are big contributors to Aer Lingus discussions in threads in the existing fora. Another potential consideration in my mind would be the possible support for the proposed change by relevant fora moderators, but when I checked, it appeared that the current other European airlines forum doesn't have any assigned moderators. If there are moderators with expertise in the area or some that are especially familiar with the existing other European airlines forum, of course their opinions would be very valuable to the discussion of this issue.

Jenbel

No, I quoted JDiver quite deliberately. I was really surprised to see the forum moderator post something which is so obviously at odds with what has been TB practice up until now, so I wanted clarification as to why he was suggesting something which has not been favoured by TB up until now.

The problem with polls is that all you do is get an idea of how many people are willing to click 'yes' in a poll. There is nothing to stop members attempting to 'pad' the vote; people who don't care for the forum are unlikely to bother to vote against it, so you all you really get is an idea of how many people are bothered enough to vote yes - even though you have no idea of whether or not they'll actually use the forum. Look at the 'Seniors' forum - lots of people saying what a great idea it was, and how they'd use it, and it basically became a chat forum for 3 members before it was finally shut down. With a poll - even if you use a display handles options to stop those advocating from creating multiple handles to pad the poll) (and I don't think the OP here would, but I'm sure other OPs would, given it has happened previously ) the problem is exacerbated. So that to me is up until now, why polls haven't been used. Because the results really don't do much to indicate how popular a new forum would be.

And at the end of the day, you were elected to represent the members. What is the point of you if all Carol needs to do is call a poll every time an issues comes up?

oliver2002

So padding a thread about a forum proposal is any different?

As a former TBer, It would interesting to hear your views on how a TBer gets the vibe from the their constituents... in the case of the EI forum proposal, I'm fairly certain the majority of TB normally doesn't read the OEFFP forum... TB doesn't have a town hall meeting environment, so a show of hands and opinions in a thread are the only thing they could go by?

MSPeconomist

Actually, I've visited the other European airlines forum a few times since this thread started, but I'm not sure how informative that is beyond getting a very rough impression of the number and nature of recent threads about Aer Lingus versus other airlines and a very rough sense of who has been posting and contributing there.

No one has suggested that decisions about new fora be based solely on polls, but if we can reasonably get some information from a poll at little cost in time or effort, why not do so? Of course I'm aware of the need to interpret polls cautiously due to small numbers of respondents who self select, but sometimes a low response rate is itself informative. The question and choices also need to be worded appropriately, with careful attention given to whether multiple responses should be permitted.

Jenbel

Yes, pretty much. In my day, we also used to start threads in forums where there was a question about what should happen to that forum so that members of that forum were informed their forum were being discussed and could contribute to the discussion giving their own experiences and preferences. For example, when Swiss and LH forums were merged, I actually did what was probably the biggest consultation as to what the Swiss and LH members wanted to happen about the M&M airlines - the LH members were a bit apathetic, the Swiss were adament they wanted their own little corner preserved and made a good case for doing so. At the end of the day, TB members represent the members, but for any specific forum, the members and the mods are the experts about that forum and IMHO, need to be heard. It's interesting to see that recent forum mergers have not involved the members, nor TB, only the mods. That's a bit scary - its how the KLM/AF forum merger was so messed up because it was assumed the KLM flyers and the AF flyers would get along

I always personally favoured quality of argument over the number of people going 'me too' - particularly after the Seniors and religious travellers forum messes. Too many low count posters will swear they will be active in the forum they are supporting and then never appear again (just read the threads for those who opposed closing the religious travellers forums, and then see how many have actually ever posted there ). At least in a thread, you can see who has made the post - in a poll, you might not even have that information (or you'll need to go and look at their profiles)