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Old Dec 1, 11, 1:39 pm   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsx View Post
koko, you can run for TB President to make a statement or you can run to win the approval of your fellow TB members. I don't believe you can do both. It appears you have chosen the former.

You can prove me wrong by persuading me how each of your proposed changes, or even just a majority of them, will make FT a better place. Better for the 99%, you know, the ones who have no idea what TalkBoard is. People who just read and sometimes post. Will your changes attract and retain more members? Or do they risk damaging FT?

I have an open mind, since these are changes I have not seriously considered before. Persuade me. Please.



Yes, that's a problem koko has, but without the attitude he wouldn't be the koko we love.
It's really quite simple: Randy set up Flyertalk as a command and control managed entity. There was the beloved benevolent dictator. And Flyertalk is to this day managed by a group of self-selected moderators who operate by self-set standards and are accountable only to each other and then ultimately to Carol.

Would you set up a management structure that way? To me it makes no sense. There ought to be ultimate accountability to the posters. Not to each other. And the FT TB is the focus group of the posters, elected by and so presumably reflective of the posters at large. Not a perfect representational system but the only one we've got right now.

Should the posters not be given access to the semi-secret Moderator Best Practices so we can know where the actual lines are?

Should the posters not have an opportunity to air grievances to a representative body that actually has the authority to affect the day-to-day FT experience?

The reality is that Randy put these rules in place and they worked for him. But look at what he has done at MilePoint: taken a completely different approach. Still ridiculously secretive and opaque, imho, but the point is that 'because that's the way it has always been done' is pretty much the worst reason ever to do something a certain way.

Greater transparency, better and more direct poster input to the day-to-day operation of FT are things worth exploring. Worth trying. At they very least worth talking about in detail.

I don't have all the answers. I have some ideas. So do many others. Maybe my ideas suck and there are other, better ways forward. But since the dawn of FT moderation we have been kept silent on certain issues.

That's dumb.

The world has changed. IBBs have changed. Randy cashed out and took some of his buddies with him. So I am saying it's time for some critical self-evaluation and analysis. Time to get the hell out of the box in our thinking.

I'm not here to tell anyone what to do. I'm here to stir the pot, get folks thinking and see if there isn't a better way forward.

As for wanting to be emperor, puh-lease. That's not my gig. Like my last stint on the TB when I led the effort to create greater transparency and structure to the TalkBoard itself, my goal this time is to improve and bring transparency to the day-to-day operation and processes of the rest of FlyerTalk, then once the that's done fade quietly back into retirement.

Or fail trying.

And, yeah, this is how I am going to try to do it: bluntly and forthrightly. In the light of day with all my cards on the table. Because it's not a game to me, it's a sincere effort.

Finally, I want to emphasize (because I know this argument is coming), yes, Carol is a worthy successor to Randy. Dare I say it? Yes I do: an improvement. She is consistent, open minded and I consider her a personal friend. The fact that this thread as not been nuked and I have not been suspended (yet ) is a testament to those facts.

And yes, the mods are ultimately responsible to her.

But I don't care if it's Carol or Randy or even me in that position, the structure is, to me, something that ought to be analyzed and improved.
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Old Dec 1, 11, 1:44 pm   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a7800 View Post
Maybe before you run for president you should take the pledge.

http://www.r-word.org/
Yeah...sometimes I'm an idiot. Sorry.

Or maybe more than sometimes....
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Old Dec 1, 11, 1:47 pm   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeaconFlyer View Post
Apparently you missed out on the opportunity for free elite status that many of your fellow mods took advantage of. Talk about a conflict of interest. Also nice when Carol ignores my PMs asking for a list of moderators who may be biased about negative comments about the airline that is providing them benefits.
I have received no elite status as a result of being a mod. The only 'payment' I've received were two stipends for attending mod dos - neither of which were sufficient to cover all the costs of my attendance (which is not a complaint, if I had been unwilling to spend money going, then I wouldn't have gone) and a FT t-shirt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsaboutthejourney View Post
Are you saying you may not want to be a mod if you are held accountable? No one is forcing you to be a moderator, and if you don't abuse your privileges and power as moderator why should you be worried about these proposed changes?
No, I'm held accountable presently. What I am not willing to do is continue to be a mod if I'm going to be subject to audits and performance reviews, and threatened that if I don't comply and toe the line as TB thinks, then I will be removed.

TB is a popularity contest. I know it's good points and its flaws intimately. It's not the body to regulate moderation, which is commonly unpopular - while TB is all about maintaining popularity. I do not want someone overturning my management of a forum because it might get them some votes - this is the group which voted one way and then immediately raised a motion to reverse the result of the first vote. Forums cannot be managed on a whim like that.
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Old Dec 1, 11, 1:58 pm   #34
 
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Originally Posted by Jenbel View Post
TB is a popularity contest. I know it's good points and its flaws intimately. It's not the body to regulate moderation, which is commonly unpopular - while TB is all about maintaining popularity. I do not want someone overturning my management of a forum because it might get them some votes - this is the group which voted one way and then immediately raised a motion to reverse the result of the first vote. Forums cannot be managed on a whim like that.


(underline mine)

Jenbel, will you please run for TB next year? At least consider to run?

Last edited by lin821; Dec 1, 11 at 2:47 pm. Reason: typo
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Old Dec 1, 11, 2:07 pm   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenbel View Post

TB is a popularity contest. I know it's good points and its flaws intimately. It's not the body to regulate moderation, which is commonly unpopular - while TB is all about maintaining popularity. I do not want someone overturning my management of a forum because it might get them some votes - this is the group which voted one way and then immediately raised a motion to reverse the result of the first vote. Forums cannot be managed on a whim like that.
Yes. They should be managed by individuals whose actions can't even be mentioned without the threat of deletion or banning.
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Old Dec 1, 11, 2:42 pm   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutz View Post
And Flyertalk is to this day managed by a group of self-selected moderators who operate by self-set standards and are accountable only to each other and then ultimately to Carol.
Ultimately ultimately to IB.

Koko, what do you believe is so inherently or normatively deficient about self-set standards? Aren't TB's rules largely self-set?

Quote:
Would you set up a management structure that way? To me it makes no sense. There ought to be ultimate accountability to the posters.
I'd venture that you find the management structure does make sense but that some of the particulars personally rankle you. It doesn't follow that what you don't like is a normative matter. Perhaps you could you expand on what you mean by 'ultimate accountability to the posters'? There's something rather charged about that statement but the more I read it the more vague it sounds.

Quote:
But I don't care if it's Carol or Randy or even me in that position, the structure is, to me, something that ought to be analyzed and improved.
Aren't we already and constantly analyzing FT's structure?
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Old Dec 1, 11, 3:29 pm   #37
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Maybe before you run for president you should take the pledge.

http://www.r-word.org/
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Old Dec 1, 11, 3:55 pm   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by essxjay View Post
Ultimately ultimately to IB.
IB has been pretty awesome about letting the guards run the asylum. I'm simply suggesting letting the inmates have a fuller say in how it's run too.

Quote:
Koko, what do you believe is so inherently or normatively deficient about self-set standards? Aren't TB's rules largely self-set?
Because they are done in secret. Transparency would be better. So would having folks other than the enforcers have input on them. The TB guidelines process was transparent and open to comment and input by all posters. The mod selection process is done in secret using guidelines that are not open for review and the best practices are kept under lock and key.

Quote:
I'd venture that you find the management structure does make sense but that some of the particulars personally rankle you. It doesn't follow that what you don't like is a normative matter. Perhaps you could you expand on what you mean by 'ultimate accountability to the posters'? There's something rather charged about that statement but the more I read it the more vague it sounds.
Actually I am not 100% sure what the entire management structure even is, because 1) the best practices guide is a semi-secret, 2) Mod training is done in private and 3) I don't know what else I don't know.

Quote:
Aren't we already and constantly analyzing FT's structure?
Who is 'we'? Certain aspects of FT's structure are only analyzed by those allowed to talk about it in the moderator forum. Again, in secret.

I'm sure it all makes perfect sense to you though. You are on the inside. That's what I mean when I say that people with different jobs around here have very different perspectives...
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Old Dec 1, 11, 4:54 pm   #39
 
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I always held the view some of Randy's bans needs to reviewed, He is no longer here, so why should certain members who have full access to the site be barred from certain sections? These users severed their punishment and if they have not been suspended or whatever else since then, should (IMHO) be given the chance to post everywhere, even if it means a probationary period for an year...


Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutz View Post
I intend to run for President of the TalkBoard and I am going to tell you why.

First of all I think it would be cool if, for the first time in, what? Ten years or more? The President of the Talk Board was not also a moderator. In point of fact, not only am I not a moderator, but by Randy’s stupid old rules I am prohibited from ever becoming a moderator.

And really, how stupid is that; there is no person who is more dedicated to FlyerTalk than I am. I was one of the very first posters here. I have made a lot of my best friends here. For God’s sake, I even met my wife here. True story! And I’ve never tried to make a dime from being involved in FT or very frequent travel. And yet, by some retarded, arbitrary Randy Petersen decree/decision I am prohibited from getting more involved in the FT decision-taking process. Stupid.

But that’s not what this post is about. Because Randy did me a favor in his decision to never allow me to moderate. He ensured that I would always and forever see FlyerTalk from the perspective of a poster and only a poster; that I would never become invested in FlyerTalk as a moderator or senior moderator or administrator. So he locked me into that perspective, that unique perspective, and it has given me a unique insight into the poster experience.

So, from that unique perspective I am taking the unusual (and likely controversial) decision to announce my intention to run for President of TB here rather than in the rarified airs of the private TB forum. After all, if TB is going to be totally transparent it should start right here, right now. I apologize in advance for this breach of decorum.

But I view my intention as far more than an administrative nicety. I view it as a proposed revolution.

I don’t intend to preside over the TalkBoard. I intend to revolutionize it. I intend to, to coin a phrase, #occupy it.

Here is what I would do as President of the TB:

Work with Carol to expand the scope of the TB beyond its Randy-assigned task of recommending forums into a body tasked with making recommendations regarding every aspect of the FT experience.

Make FT truly and 100% responsive to the posters, from forum creation to moderation to forum closure.

Use that influence to, for example:
  • Audit suspensions, forum bans and permanent suspensions of posters to make recommendations to ensure they are appropriate.
  • Make recommendations to enforce best practices on moderators up to and including reviewing and if necessary removing moderators.
  • Draw a bright line between FT administration and moderation by ensuring that TB members divorce themselves from moderation responsibilities.
  • Ensure that TB members, moderators and all who are entrusted with leading FT have the interests of FT and only the interests of FT at heart. Ie, no hucksters, money-grubbers or commercialists taking the critical decisions on FT.
  • Generally work in an uninhibited and unlimited collaborative way to ensure that the TB make FT into a place that is by the posters, of the posters and for the posters.

I realize that these ideas are outside the box, radical and not in keeping with the status-quo, go along to get along TalkBoards of yore. There are many posters reading this right now who are probably thinking: ummm NO. Most mods must be thinking the same thing.

I’m posting this in the wee hours from Louisville, Kentucky. I’ll be slightly surprised if it’s not deleted by the time I wake up in the morning (c'mon, Craig, gimme a chance!!!).

I don’t expect everyone to like my intentions or this post. Hell, if Randy had never done me the favor of entering his BS suspension of me into the moderation database, I’d likely be the first to say that this post and my intentions were an insane over-reach.

And maybe they are.

But I don’t think so. I think they are simply removing stupid limitations from the advisory focus group that is the TalkBoard.

If I’m right, I will be elected President of the TB. If not, then so be it. The will of the posters via their elected TB members be done.

And oh, but one last thing: I love Spiffy. I consider him a true friend, from our many drinking and talking sessions. But he and I have incredible different views of the TB. That’s cool. Because maybe he is right. Maybe the TB should be severely limited in scope. I suppose we’ll find out if a majority of the TB thinks so before the next four weeks are up.

Until then, as always, I look forward to a lively conversation. That is, after all, what FT is all about.

xo
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Old Dec 1, 11, 4:57 pm   #40
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I am confident that our Community Director has an open mind to any reasonable request. Might as well try the front door before breaking in through the back window.
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Old Dec 1, 11, 5:02 pm   #41
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I am confident that our Community Director has an open mind to any reasonable request. Might as well try the front door before breaking in through the back window.
Attempted break-ins often have... consequences.
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Old Dec 1, 11, 5:04 pm   #42
 
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Never Mind
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Old Dec 1, 11, 5:05 pm   #43
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If the CD doesn't reply to messages,perhaps one should go to someone who'll listen?
Perhaps no reply is in and of itself a response.
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Old Dec 1, 11, 5:09 pm   #44
 
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Perhaps no reply is in and of itself a response.
Or looking the other way if it has to do with Mod actions..
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Old Dec 1, 11, 5:11 pm   #45
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ewrfox or anyone else, if the Community Director does not respond to your question, I volunteer to help. If you can share the question with me via PM and if I agree with you that it's a reasonable request, I will present it to the Community Director in a way that is likely to get an answer.

Probably most other TalkBoard members would do the same for you.

Consider this option a side door.
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