What is a 'Do?' When does a 'Do' become a commercial venture?
Mar 18, 2011, 5:06 pm
#106
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Does anyone know: What do the sponsors get out of the money they donate to offset the costs of these "FT University" / Seminar Do's? These sponsors aren't handing out grants, are they?
I think Koko has a valid point, "Do" organizers don't typically get free rooms or a free meal for organizing their respective function(s). Adding sponsors and comping organizers/speakers (even if the comp isn't all inclusive) may be where the line is being crossed, from an get together of like minded FTers in a cool location to an event that is something different.
While its fine to say that the organizers aren't profiting from it today doesn't mean that is can't be profited form tomorrow. Just ask Randy about that one...
I think Koko has a valid point, "Do" organizers don't typically get free rooms or a free meal for organizing their respective function(s). Adding sponsors and comping organizers/speakers (even if the comp isn't all inclusive) may be where the line is being crossed, from an get together of like minded FTers in a cool location to an event that is something different.
While its fine to say that the organizers aren't profiting from it today doesn't mean that is can't be profited form tomorrow. Just ask Randy about that one...
What does any sponsor get out of anything? Visibility in front of a perceived target audience.
It sounds like for you a do is simply getting together in a cool location in a social way w/ like-minded travelers. For the 450 folk that chose to attend ORD Sem Do last year, it was getting together in a (not so cool) location w/ like-minded folk to learn in a structured environment vs informally over a beer or a meal at Wagamama's - and that something different was fine w/ them.
Repeating myself from the 2010 thread when administrative fees at dos came up: I don't think admin fees at FT Dos falls under the purview of TB.
Cheers.
Mar 18, 2011, 5:09 pm
#107
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And the proviso which apparently escaped your bolding....
So, the organizer fee structure is INHERENTLY self-policing because unreasonable fees will be reflected in an unreasonable total price which will impact registration volume. High volume registration must mean reasonable fee/strong value proposition.
The market (not TB) will be the arbiter of the slope. If Seminar-DOs are priced bw $49-$75 and someone pitches a Seminar-Do at $175, then it better have gourmet food or hookers or 30K bonus miles to justify their cost (potential fee padding) structure.
The slope is ONLY slippery for the seller, as their time and effort, and maybe reputation will be all for naught, if they try and sneak outright greed into their pricing. The buyers will recognize such a slippery slope and take their business to the flatlands (ORd-Do, FTU, etc.).
Lets give some credit to the consumers here to be somewhat savvy in their decisionmaking abilities.
So, the organizer fee structure is INHERENTLY self-policing because unreasonable fees will be reflected in an unreasonable total price which will impact registration volume. High volume registration must mean reasonable fee/strong value proposition.
The market (not TB) will be the arbiter of the slope. If Seminar-DOs are priced bw $49-$75 and someone pitches a Seminar-Do at $175, then it better have gourmet food or hookers or 30K bonus miles to justify their cost (potential fee padding) structure.
The slope is ONLY slippery for the seller, as their time and effort, and maybe reputation will be all for naught, if they try and sneak outright greed into their pricing. The buyers will recognize such a slippery slope and take their business to the flatlands (ORd-Do, FTU, etc.).
Lets give some credit to the consumers here to be somewhat savvy in their decisionmaking abilities.
And frankly let's also a assume a bit of good faith, until demonstrated otherwise, on the part of folks putting in thousands of hours to host events for a community of frequent flyers.
But in the meantime let's actually enjoy the multitude of venues for the discussion of miles and points, and actually say thanks once in awhile for the people investing time, effort, and even their own cash to pull it all together. @:-)
But in the meantime let's actually enjoy the multitude of venues for the discussion of miles and points, and actually say thanks once in awhile for the people investing time, effort, and even their own cash to pull it all together. @:-)
Cheers.
Mar 18, 2011, 5:10 pm
#108
Join Date: Apr 2000
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My last shot here.
Two years ago, Randy sponsored a bunch of FT teams for my new company Competitours. It was a for profit business, the exposure would help me monitize the business over the long run....and yet because it was considered of interest/relevance to the FT community, Randy greenlighted it.
Nary an objection about my motives/intent, Randy's motives/intent, the poisoning of the pristine FT community spirit. Instead, it was embraced as a terrific opportunity that could be engaged or ignored.
So, precedent has been set, I'm afraid!!!
Two years ago, Randy sponsored a bunch of FT teams for my new company Competitours. It was a for profit business, the exposure would help me monitize the business over the long run....and yet because it was considered of interest/relevance to the FT community, Randy greenlighted it.
Nary an objection about my motives/intent, Randy's motives/intent, the poisoning of the pristine FT community spirit. Instead, it was embraced as a terrific opportunity that could be engaged or ignored.
So, precedent has been set, I'm afraid!!!
Mar 18, 2011, 5:49 pm
#109
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 37,486
My last shot here.
Two years ago, Randy sponsored a bunch of FT teams for my new company Competitours. It was a for profit business, the exposure would help me monitize the business over the long run....and yet because it was considered of interest/relevance to the FT community, Randy greenlighted it.
Nary an objection about my motives/intent, Randy's motives/intent, the poisoning of the pristine FT community spirit. Instead, it was embraced as a terrific opportunity that could be engaged or ignored.
So, precedent has been set, I'm afraid!!!
Two years ago, Randy sponsored a bunch of FT teams for my new company Competitours. It was a for profit business, the exposure would help me monitize the business over the long run....and yet because it was considered of interest/relevance to the FT community, Randy greenlighted it.
Nary an objection about my motives/intent, Randy's motives/intent, the poisoning of the pristine FT community spirit. Instead, it was embraced as a terrific opportunity that could be engaged or ignored.
So, precedent has been set, I'm afraid!!!
Mar 18, 2011, 6:11 pm
#110
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Let's take the personalities away. On my drive home, the local sports radio guys were on their Friday "tavern tour" - a sponsored remote at one local establishment per week. If Budweiser wants to sponsor a party for FT members at a local adult beverage establishment, are they allowed to do the following:
1. Create a FT user
2. Create a post in community announcing their event
3. Link to their web site in the post
4. Pay Randy his standard day's consulting fee to come fly in for the event.
If it wasn't gleff and ingy and wannaflyforless and beaubo and Tommy, but some currently nameless guerilla marketer being paid by Budweiser to drum up business, how would you all feel? In fact, how do you know I'm not that marketer and that Budweiser didn't pay me $50 to post here? (Well that's easy, Budweiser is awful.)
Let's be clear on my position here: I want you all to make as much money as you possibly can - I'm a small business capitalist at heart. That you're not.. that doesn't particularly impress me or annoy me. What would infuriate me is if you were hiding being all these obviously passionately responses and actually making serious money and not coming clean. But given the fervor of your defense, that can't possibly be the case.
I just want to know given the stated TOS and the endorsed interpretation of it from our esteemed Community Director a few months ago (for which I apologize not having previously seen), who else is allowed to make money using Community and for what types of endeavors. That's why I found the topic interesting on page 1.
1. Create a FT user
2. Create a post in community announcing their event
3. Link to their web site in the post
4. Pay Randy his standard day's consulting fee to come fly in for the event.
If it wasn't gleff and ingy and wannaflyforless and beaubo and Tommy, but some currently nameless guerilla marketer being paid by Budweiser to drum up business, how would you all feel? In fact, how do you know I'm not that marketer and that Budweiser didn't pay me $50 to post here? (Well that's easy, Budweiser is awful.)
Let's be clear on my position here: I want you all to make as much money as you possibly can - I'm a small business capitalist at heart. That you're not.. that doesn't particularly impress me or annoy me. What would infuriate me is if you were hiding being all these obviously passionately responses and actually making serious money and not coming clean. But given the fervor of your defense, that can't possibly be the case.
I just want to know given the stated TOS and the endorsed interpretation of it from our esteemed Community Director a few months ago (for which I apologize not having previously seen), who else is allowed to make money using Community and for what types of endeavors. That's why I found the topic interesting on page 1.
Mar 18, 2011, 7:25 pm
#111
formerly known as Frugal Travel Guy
Join Date: Jul 2001
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My compensation last year
The first night I bought dinner and got a free meal while treating some of the set up volunteers. My profit $15 (a meal)
I bought dinner for three or four of our speakers the last night. I was one of them. My profit $20 (a meal)
I bought myself a crazy Hawaiian shirt so anybody could find me in the crowd if they needed me. My profit $15 (a shirt)
I bought my own airline ticket to Chicago, my room was comped as were the other speakers.
I gave one of the speakers a $200 voucher so he could attend. My cost $200. (Now whine that I got the voucher for less than $200. I would expect that next.)
100 copies of my book which were sold and the proceeds donated to the Wounded Warriors. My cost $250+-
The net cost to me of about $400 and countless hours of my time for the appreciative members of the community.
koko if you felt I took advantage, I'll send you the Hawaiian shirt if you'd like.
I bought dinner for three or four of our speakers the last night. I was one of them. My profit $20 (a meal)
I bought myself a crazy Hawaiian shirt so anybody could find me in the crowd if they needed me. My profit $15 (a shirt)
I bought my own airline ticket to Chicago, my room was comped as were the other speakers.
I gave one of the speakers a $200 voucher so he could attend. My cost $200. (Now whine that I got the voucher for less than $200. I would expect that next.)
100 copies of my book which were sold and the proceeds donated to the Wounded Warriors. My cost $250+-
The net cost to me of about $400 and countless hours of my time for the appreciative members of the community.
koko if you felt I took advantage, I'll send you the Hawaiian shirt if you'd like.
Mar 18, 2011, 7:43 pm
#112
Moderator: Hilton Honors, Practical Travel Safety Issues & San Francisco
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I don't have a dog in the fight as
I'm not a huge fan of either of the antagonists 
But as I see it there is an issue here that both sides are trying their best to obfuscate.
In the "old days" - DO's were often fancy meals, or weekend get togethers where participants paid for their meals, and organizers, sadly often got shorted when some didn't pay their share.
So some DO's began to require pre-payment of costs - drinks usually extra and no one minded as the organizers weren't getting anything out of it except the glory of putting together an awesome do.
Some DO's, the Freddies and a few others, were subsidized by Randy so no one had to pay for the event itself.
Some DO's for the moderator corps were subsidized by Randy and then IB to help with the costs of travel. Many mods "lost money" on the events in that the subsidy often did not cover travel costs. In any event it was a "reward" for a year's worth of volunteering.
(bear with me I'm getting there)
Now without our generous benefactor hosting a yearly awards events, we see what looks to me to be a hybrid event. Hosts are finding sponsors to subsidize costs of large events, but any bennies the organizers receive are NOT transparent as it might have been in the old days. And in spite of what gleff has said,some events will definitely enhance some individuals' "street cred" in the world of frequent flyer minds, which opens the door for those individuals to gain monetary reward at some point for their PAY services.
AND these individuals ARE getting comps to at least some pieces of the events which IIRC was NOT a part of most do organizers rewards in the past.
So I think we are right to question the transparency of these benefits - I don't have a hit that their needs to be a separate forum, but it IS a different world here . If the organizers of these events aren't doing anything untoward, what's wrong with stating in a DO for which money is being charged for SERVICES "Organizers will receive hotel rooms and 10000 miles for their volunteering for this event." I have NO PROBLEM at all with this - it just should be upfront.
And to those who say you had NO CHOICE but to call it the "FT Awards" - I think even YOU don't believe that.
But as I see it there is an issue here that both sides are trying their best to obfuscate.
In the "old days" - DO's were often fancy meals, or weekend get togethers where participants paid for their meals, and organizers, sadly often got shorted when some didn't pay their share.
So some DO's began to require pre-payment of costs - drinks usually extra and no one minded as the organizers weren't getting anything out of it except the glory of putting together an awesome do.
Some DO's, the Freddies and a few others, were subsidized by Randy so no one had to pay for the event itself.
Some DO's for the moderator corps were subsidized by Randy and then IB to help with the costs of travel. Many mods "lost money" on the events in that the subsidy often did not cover travel costs. In any event it was a "reward" for a year's worth of volunteering.
(bear with me I'm getting there)
Now without our generous benefactor hosting a yearly awards events, we see what looks to me to be a hybrid event. Hosts are finding sponsors to subsidize costs of large events, but any bennies the organizers receive are NOT transparent as it might have been in the old days. And in spite of what gleff has said,some events will definitely enhance some individuals' "street cred" in the world of frequent flyer minds, which opens the door for those individuals to gain monetary reward at some point for their PAY services.
AND these individuals ARE getting comps to at least some pieces of the events which IIRC was NOT a part of most do organizers rewards in the past.
So I think we are right to question the transparency of these benefits - I don't have a hit that their needs to be a separate forum, but it IS a different world here . If the organizers of these events aren't doing anything untoward, what's wrong with stating in a DO for which money is being charged for SERVICES "Organizers will receive hotel rooms and 10000 miles for their volunteering for this event." I have NO PROBLEM at all with this - it just should be upfront.
And to those who say you had NO CHOICE but to call it the "FT Awards" - I think even YOU don't believe that.
Mar 18, 2011, 7:51 pm
#113
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Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 37,486
I also find the "I didn't make any money off my previous endeavor" posts to be misleading.
Sure, the first (or second) time you paid for everything yourself was nice of you - but I can't help feel that for some people, that may have been a prelude to much larger things. Give a little, get a lot back later.
Sure, the first (or second) time you paid for everything yourself was nice of you - but I can't help feel that for some people, that may have been a prelude to much larger things. Give a little, get a lot back later.
Mar 18, 2011, 8:02 pm
#114
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In the "old days" - DO's were often fancy meals, or weekend get togethers where participants paid for their meals, and organizers, sadly often got shorted when some didn't pay their share.
So some DO's began to require pre-payment of costs - drinks usually extra and no one minded as the organizers weren't getting anything out of it except the glory of putting together an awesome do.
Some DO's, the Freddies and a few others, were subsidized by Randy so no one had to pay for the event itself.
Some DO's for the moderator corps were subsidized by Randy and then IB to help with the costs of travel. Many mods "lost money" on the events in that the subsidy often did not cover travel costs. In any event it was a "reward" for a year's worth of volunteering.
(bear with me I'm getting there)
So some DO's began to require pre-payment of costs - drinks usually extra and no one minded as the organizers weren't getting anything out of it except the glory of putting together an awesome do.
Some DO's, the Freddies and a few others, were subsidized by Randy so no one had to pay for the event itself.
Some DO's for the moderator corps were subsidized by Randy and then IB to help with the costs of travel. Many mods "lost money" on the events in that the subsidy often did not cover travel costs. In any event it was a "reward" for a year's worth of volunteering.
(bear with me I'm getting there)
(Except the part about trying to obfuscate anything, really, I'm not -- which is why I've been posting here in such detail.)
Now without our generous benefactor hosting a yearly awards events, we see what looks to me to be a hybrid event. Hosts are finding sponsors to subsidize costs of large events, but any bennies the organizers receive are NOT transparent as it might have been in the old days.
Ingy and I have been on this thread detailing EXACTLY who has gotten what, who is out of pocket what, I've explained time and again that he picked up two hotel nights for me at the Chicago Seminar DO (I paid my airfare, etc) in October. I've explained that I'm in New York anyway for the Frequent Traveler University (and c'mon, it's no big deal, I'm based in DC anyway). And that I've come out of pocket 100,000 miles to help bring people to it.
There's not much hidden here. There are no great kickbacks or secret deals, rewards being doled out.
And in spite of what gleff has said,some events will definitely enhance some individuals' "street cred" in the world of frequent flyer minds, which opens the door for those individuals to gain monetary reward at some point for their PAY services.
Could ther be a benefit to me from putting on a successful Frequent Traveler Awards, which is not the subject of this thread? Sure.
Y'know what, look at tommy777. He and a bunch of other folks like oliver2002 charted a darned plane and got a bunch of airlines to host events and even airline CEOs to show up. That was a pretty big deal, a bunch of frequent flyers had the time of their lives, and there was some media around it. It was a really big deal and any reputatoin he built from that was earned.
If I can help continue an award in the tradition of the Freddies -- get programs to take it so seriously that they send out 50 to 100 million emails about it, bring in their top leadership.. all in the name of celebrating what's best about frequent flyer programs and nudging them to do their best for their members so that they perform well. Then hopefully I'll have done something that deserves the esteem of friends and fellow travelers.
Do I have any idea if that sort of reputation will make me money? Nah, I don't. But I know that it's exactly the kind of reputatoin that I want because I like to think of myself as someone who helps fellow frequent flyers, who delivers the goods in a big way when given the opportunity to put on something big.
Everything that I do, everything any of us do, reflects on us and our reputations.
So to the extent I can help folks, I'll benefit my reputation. But it's precisely because I do care about my reputation, which whatever it is hopefully has been earned, it's the very reason why I deal with folks in an above-board manner.
Mar 18, 2011, 8:18 pm
#115
Moderator: Hilton Honors, Practical Travel Safety Issues & San Francisco
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my point in posting
I wanted to comment that IN THE FUTURE this kind of stuff could be dealt with by transparency at the outset, and I even gave a model for how that might look.
Mar 18, 2011, 8:44 pm
#116
Suspended
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Location: DCA
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And the proviso which apparently escaped your bolding....
So, the organizer fee structure is INHERENTLY self-policing because unreasonable fees will be reflected in an unreasonable total price which will impact registration volume. High volume registration must mean reasonable fee/strong value proposition.
The market (not TB) will be the arbiter of the slope. If Seminar-DOs are priced bw $49-$75 and someone pitches a Seminar-Do at $175, then it better have gourmet food or hookers or 30K bonus miles to justify their cost (potential fee padding) structure.
The slope is ONLY slippery for the seller, as their time and effort, and maybe reputation will be all for naught, if they try and sneak outright greed into their pricing. The buyers will recognize such a slippery slope and take their business to the flatlands (ORd-Do, FTU, etc.).
Lets give some credit to the consumers here to be somewhat savvy in their decisionmaking abilities.
So, the organizer fee structure is INHERENTLY self-policing because unreasonable fees will be reflected in an unreasonable total price which will impact registration volume. High volume registration must mean reasonable fee/strong value proposition.
The market (not TB) will be the arbiter of the slope. If Seminar-DOs are priced bw $49-$75 and someone pitches a Seminar-Do at $175, then it better have gourmet food or hookers or 30K bonus miles to justify their cost (potential fee padding) structure.
The slope is ONLY slippery for the seller, as their time and effort, and maybe reputation will be all for naught, if they try and sneak outright greed into their pricing. The buyers will recognize such a slippery slope and take their business to the flatlands (ORd-Do, FTU, etc.).
Lets give some credit to the consumers here to be somewhat savvy in their decisionmaking abilities.
Seems like you would be OK with the organizers making $5000 off the event since they didn't realize the true costs.
Mar 18, 2011, 9:08 pm
#117
Moderator: Delta SkyMiles, Luxury Hotels, TravelBuzz! and Italy
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 26,543
I'm not a huge fan of either of the antagonists
But as I see it there is an issue here that both sides are trying their best to obfuscate.
In the "old days" - DO's were often fancy meals, or weekend get togethers where participants paid for their meals, and organizers, sadly often got shorted when some didn't pay their share.
So some DO's began to require pre-payment of costs - drinks usually extra and no one minded as the organizers weren't getting anything out of it except the glory of putting together an awesome do.
Some DO's, the Freddies and a few others, were subsidized by Randy so no one had to pay for the event itself.
Some DO's for the moderator corps were subsidized by Randy and then IB to help with the costs of travel. Many mods "lost money" on the events in that the subsidy often did not cover travel costs. In any event it was a "reward" for a year's worth of volunteering.
(bear with me I'm getting there)
Now without our generous benefactor hosting a yearly awards events, we see what looks to me to be a hybrid event. Hosts are finding sponsors to subsidize costs of large events, but any bennies the organizers receive are NOT transparent as it might have been in the old days. And in spite of what gleff has said,some events will definitely enhance some individuals' "street cred" in the world of frequent flyer minds, which opens the door for those individuals to gain monetary reward at some point for their PAY services.
AND these individuals ARE getting comps to at least some pieces of the events which IIRC was NOT a part of most do organizers rewards in the past.
So I think we are right to question the transparency of these benefits - I don't have a hit that their needs to be a separate forum, but it IS a different world here . If the organizers of these events aren't doing anything untoward, what's wrong with stating in a DO for which money is being charged for SERVICES "Organizers will receive hotel rooms and 10000 miles for their volunteering for this event." I have NO PROBLEM at all with this - it just should be upfront.
And to those who say you had NO CHOICE but to call it the "FT Awards" - I think even YOU don't believe that.
But as I see it there is an issue here that both sides are trying their best to obfuscate.
In the "old days" - DO's were often fancy meals, or weekend get togethers where participants paid for their meals, and organizers, sadly often got shorted when some didn't pay their share.
So some DO's began to require pre-payment of costs - drinks usually extra and no one minded as the organizers weren't getting anything out of it except the glory of putting together an awesome do.
Some DO's, the Freddies and a few others, were subsidized by Randy so no one had to pay for the event itself.
Some DO's for the moderator corps were subsidized by Randy and then IB to help with the costs of travel. Many mods "lost money" on the events in that the subsidy often did not cover travel costs. In any event it was a "reward" for a year's worth of volunteering.
(bear with me I'm getting there)
Now without our generous benefactor hosting a yearly awards events, we see what looks to me to be a hybrid event. Hosts are finding sponsors to subsidize costs of large events, but any bennies the organizers receive are NOT transparent as it might have been in the old days. And in spite of what gleff has said,some events will definitely enhance some individuals' "street cred" in the world of frequent flyer minds, which opens the door for those individuals to gain monetary reward at some point for their PAY services.
AND these individuals ARE getting comps to at least some pieces of the events which IIRC was NOT a part of most do organizers rewards in the past.
So I think we are right to question the transparency of these benefits - I don't have a hit that their needs to be a separate forum, but it IS a different world here . If the organizers of these events aren't doing anything untoward, what's wrong with stating in a DO for which money is being charged for SERVICES "Organizers will receive hotel rooms and 10000 miles for their volunteering for this event." I have NO PROBLEM at all with this - it just should be upfront.
And to those who say you had NO CHOICE but to call it the "FT Awards" - I think even YOU don't believe that.
Mar 18, 2011, 9:56 pm
#118
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Original Poster
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in LIMA, PERU
Posts: 58,607
I am wading into this morass to clarify the issue of speakers being preemptively offered (not asking for) comped air and hotel.
I solicited the head of a couple of non-profit organizations here in Cleveland as well as my sister who does event coordination for the two largest hospital systems in town, for clarification and here's what they both said:
* when a speaker comes in from out of town, he is entitled to a per diem, whether he is paid or a volunteer. That per diem is set by the US government on a per city cost of living basis. It is not considered compensation and not subject to decaration as taxation of income
* in leiu of a per diem, the speaker can choose to have the event be responsible for airport transport, hotel and food costs/logistics. As most speakers are from out of town, they are happy to delegate such arrangements to host company
* in some instances, the cost of the speaker's travel-related expenses are picked up by host, sometimes by sponsor recruited by the host
* for large events, key volunteers are often paid a dedicated wage for time considered above and beyond their normal hours spent with the host non-profit as cash or consideration, such as travel-related expenses/per diem
* these expenses are considered as absolutely normal by non-profit standards, as there is no prohibition on recognizing the obvious OPPORTUNITY COSTS of a speaker donating their time and mitigating any reasonable out-of-pocket expenses
Therefore....
1. A Do-organizer is entitled to build-in a fee for their extracurricular time in executing a Do. Whether that fee is disclosed or not is immaterial, as the final cost to the participant will be the ultimate determinant as to whether the DO in general is perceived as a good value. (Kind of like YQ, knowing it as aseparate line item dooes not change total cost of ticket). So, the organizer fee structure is INHERENTLY self-policing because unreasonable fees will be reflected in an unreasonable total price which will impact registration volume. High volume registration must mean reasonable fee/strong value proposition.
2. Speakers are entitled to accept travel-related cost defrayment without any sense of guilt, without being perceived as being bought off, assuming such travel-related elements are similar (not necessarily exact) to those being offered to paying customers. Such cost defrayment is not to be confused with compensation, as it is intended to be income-neutral.
As the speakers at these events are typically flush with miles and points anyway, clearly no motive can be ascribed for accumulating freebies. That said, if a DO has proactively planned for speaker cash per diem or travel-related consideration, no holier-than-thou abstention from accepting such offers should be required. Creating an efficient and affordable scenario for recruiting speakers is not suspect, its called being professional.
As the resident cynic, if Seminar DOs are banned from Flyertalk, will TB allow 'Post-ORD-DO Party' threads that tangentially reference (without a link) such events? As master loophole dudes of FFPs, you can be damn sure that no amount TB vigilance will stop posting leakage.
I'm done.
PS- As speaker for ORD-Do, I paid my own way and was offered hotel AFTER I already checked in, with no expectation of reimbursement. I happily accepted the offer...no shame, no regrets, no apologies. For FTU, I offered to pay my own way and was advised that a sponsor had included our travel in their fee to FTU, so I appreciated the kind thought and took them up on offer...no shame, no regrets, no apologies.
I solicited the head of a couple of non-profit organizations here in Cleveland as well as my sister who does event coordination for the two largest hospital systems in town, for clarification and here's what they both said:
* when a speaker comes in from out of town, he is entitled to a per diem, whether he is paid or a volunteer. That per diem is set by the US government on a per city cost of living basis. It is not considered compensation and not subject to decaration as taxation of income
* in leiu of a per diem, the speaker can choose to have the event be responsible for airport transport, hotel and food costs/logistics. As most speakers are from out of town, they are happy to delegate such arrangements to host company
* in some instances, the cost of the speaker's travel-related expenses are picked up by host, sometimes by sponsor recruited by the host
* for large events, key volunteers are often paid a dedicated wage for time considered above and beyond their normal hours spent with the host non-profit as cash or consideration, such as travel-related expenses/per diem
* these expenses are considered as absolutely normal by non-profit standards, as there is no prohibition on recognizing the obvious OPPORTUNITY COSTS of a speaker donating their time and mitigating any reasonable out-of-pocket expenses
Therefore....
1. A Do-organizer is entitled to build-in a fee for their extracurricular time in executing a Do. Whether that fee is disclosed or not is immaterial, as the final cost to the participant will be the ultimate determinant as to whether the DO in general is perceived as a good value. (Kind of like YQ, knowing it as aseparate line item dooes not change total cost of ticket). So, the organizer fee structure is INHERENTLY self-policing because unreasonable fees will be reflected in an unreasonable total price which will impact registration volume. High volume registration must mean reasonable fee/strong value proposition.
2. Speakers are entitled to accept travel-related cost defrayment without any sense of guilt, without being perceived as being bought off, assuming such travel-related elements are similar (not necessarily exact) to those being offered to paying customers. Such cost defrayment is not to be confused with compensation, as it is intended to be income-neutral.
As the speakers at these events are typically flush with miles and points anyway, clearly no motive can be ascribed for accumulating freebies. That said, if a DO has proactively planned for speaker cash per diem or travel-related consideration, no holier-than-thou abstention from accepting such offers should be required. Creating an efficient and affordable scenario for recruiting speakers is not suspect, its called being professional.
As the resident cynic, if Seminar DOs are banned from Flyertalk, will TB allow 'Post-ORD-DO Party' threads that tangentially reference (without a link) such events? As master loophole dudes of FFPs, you can be damn sure that no amount TB vigilance will stop posting leakage.
I'm done.
PS- As speaker for ORD-Do, I paid my own way and was offered hotel AFTER I already checked in, with no expectation of reimbursement. I happily accepted the offer...no shame, no regrets, no apologies. For FTU, I offered to pay my own way and was advised that a sponsor had included our travel in their fee to FTU, so I appreciated the kind thought and took them up on offer...no shame, no regrets, no apologies.
So when did Do's go from people breaking bread and swapping frequent flyer tips into seminars where certain attendees are 'owed' per diems and/or actuals and organizers are owed fees!?
And, more to the point, how does that in any way square with the TOS that commercial solicitations are meant to be forbidden on FT (FlyerTalk)?
PS: long time, no see!
Mar 19, 2011, 12:57 am
#119
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Programs: Starwood, Delta, American Airlines, USA, United
Posts: 223
What is self policing about the fact that, thanks to sponsor money, the true cost per person for the Chicago DO could (hypothetically) be $65 and the extra $10 per person is being pocketed by the organizers for their "organizing fee"?
Seems like you would be OK with the organizers making $5000 off the event since they didn't realize the true costs.
Seems like you would be OK with the organizers making $5000 off the event since they didn't realize the true costs.
who cares?
If we (the attendees of the event) are willing to PAY to attend the DO, then why do we care who profits from our fees? They are the ones putting on the event and they are going to the trouble to organize it. They should be compensated for their time and trouble.New Guard flyertalkers
are used to paying for things that apparently Old Guard
wants to get for free and they are offended that they aren't privy to the information or not making the profit themselves!
It is time for the Flyer Talker Old Guard to realize that "This is not your Father's Oldsmobile"
Times are achangin'!
Mar 19, 2011, 6:06 am
#120
formerly known as Frugal Travel Guy
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Greenville, SC
Programs: UA Gold, HH Gold, SPG Gold, Marriott Silver, Hyatt Platinum
Posts: 1,925
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/commu...tion-open.html
Post number #1
Seminar registration this year will be $75. Why the increase? We added for online registration (hooray), money to fly in our speakers, and lunch and coffee breaks for both days are included in your registration. This event again is 100% non profit and an all volunteer effort. Any excess proceeds will be given to charity. Seminar Registration will also be NON refundable. There will be no waiting list and you will only be able to register through the online links we will provide.
How much more of a disclosure do you need?
Post number #1
Seminar registration this year will be $75. Why the increase? We added for online registration (hooray), money to fly in our speakers, and lunch and coffee breaks for both days are included in your registration. This event again is 100% non profit and an all volunteer effort. Any excess proceeds will be given to charity. Seminar Registration will also be NON refundable. There will be no waiting list and you will only be able to register through the online links we will provide.
How much more of a disclosure do you need?