Question 2: Palatable Moderation

 
Old Nov 5, 2007, 11:28 pm
  #31  
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Originally Posted by nsx
If you show what you deleted, it's not really deleted, is it? It's right there causing almost as much disruption as if the board were not moderated at all. If you show that a post was deleted without showing the content, that just raises distracting questions unrelated to the mission of FT and doesn't satisfy anyone.

Similarly if you publish rationale for suspensions that could impair the member's ability to rejoin FT successfully, with everyone letting bygones be bygones. I don't see any benefit that outweighs the damage to FT this proposal would cause.
The benefits of transparency and accountability outweigh perceived costs.

I know members who have been suspended and none of them seem to have any problems coming back after that suspension. I doubt that a public notice of that suspension would do little more than encourage people to understand why that member went on a little trip on the RV and would also make it clear why the suspension occurred, perhaps keeping others from taking a similar trip in the RV.
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 11:30 pm
  #32  
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Originally Posted by nsx
If you show what you deleted, it's not really deleted, is it? It's right there causing almost as much disruption as if the board were not moderated at all. If you show that a post was deleted without showing the content, that just raises distracting questions unrelated to the mission of FT and doesn't satisfy anyone.

Similarly if you publish rationale for suspensions that could impair the member's ability to rejoin FT successfully, with everyone letting bygones be bygones. I don't see any benefit that outweighs the damage to FT this proposal would cause.
C'mon, nsx, you wouldn't keep the post content itself, just an empty post saying "This post deleted for TOS violations."
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 11:40 pm
  #33  
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Originally Posted by RichMSN
I doubt that a public notice of that suspension would do little more than encourage people to understand why that member went on a little trip on the RV and would also make it clear why the suspension occurred, perhaps keeping others from taking a similar trip in the RV.
My proposal is to add specific examples to the Terms of Service for precisely this purpose. There's no need to embarrass individual members by citing them publicly. Hypothetical examples of bad posts ("inspired by a true story") should be more than sufficient.

If the problem is that a handful of people don't trust the moderators to play it straight, that doesn't warrant turning FT inside out to accommodate that mistrust, does it?

Clarification of the Terms of Service will be beneficial. Let's try that first step first.
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 11:50 pm
  #34  
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Suspended members are already cited publicly in their identity block. In most cases I imagine that the real circumstances are probably milder than one might suspect, just seeing the word "Suspended" under their name.

I even suspect that if suspension had to be explained publicly, that there are some that might never even happen.
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 11:54 pm
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Punki

I even suspect that if suspension had to be explained publicly, that there are some that might never even happen.
Ding, ding. We have a winner.
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Old Nov 6, 2007, 8:02 am
  #36  
 
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Originally Posted by RichMSN
Ding, ding. We have a winner.
No, we don't. Any suspended FTer receives a full account of precisely why they were suspended and what the TOS violation involved was. If they disagree they absolutely have every right to go up the chain and appeal. Punki is one such successful appeal. It may not have been as quick a process as she'dve liked but it happened.

I will reiterate: moderation affects a very very small subset of FTers. The vast majority haven't ever even had a PM from a volunteer acting in an official capacity, much less an official warning.

Of course it's great campaign fodder to sensationalize, but it doesn't make the sensationalization into reality.

Last edited by kanebear; Nov 6, 2007 at 8:25 am
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Old Nov 6, 2007, 8:09 am
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Punki
Suspended members are already cited publicly in their identity block.
We used to use the term "Banned" but changed that to the somewhat more palatable "Suspended" a while back.

I don't think the listing of "Suspended" under a member's handle is meant to be a Scarlet Letter so much as a notice that the member won't be responding to posts for a period of time.

But all the discussion on Suspensions is over an act that is the least used tool in a moderator's bag and something that only happens to less than .01% of FT's membership.
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Old Nov 6, 2007, 8:32 am
  #38  
 
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In my experience on FlyerTalk the moderators have performed well to move threads to a more appropriate forum for discussion, have removed inappropriate, offensive posts that were creating thread friction, and advised members of posts violating terms of FlyerTalk.

I do not know if there is heavy-handed moderation and inappropriate moderator actions. I personally do not know details of any of these cases. While I consider myself a long-time member of the FlyerTalk family, I have ignored threads that descend into infighting and I have never paid much attention to squabbling about moderators.

I have served on a a couple of teacher/education related California and National policy-making boards and I believe I have a good ability to listen to different viewpoints, then find the information necessary to make a knowledgeable and informed decision on issues that impact members.

Last edited by satori; Nov 6, 2007 at 8:51 am Reason: I changed wording of second paragraph.
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Old Nov 6, 2007, 8:43 am
  #39  
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Originally Posted by kanebear
No, we don't. Any suspended FTer receives a full account of precisely why they were suspended and what the TOS violation involved was. If they disagree they absolutely have every right to go up the chain and appeal. Punki is one such successful appeal. It may not have been as quick a process as she'dve liked but it happened. And ironically enough the previous suspension was as a result of disagreements over moderation, no?

I will reiterate: moderation affects a very very small subset of FTers. The vast majority haven't ever even had a PM from a volunteer acting in an official capacity, much less an official warning.

Of course it's great campaign fodder to sensationalize, but it doesn't make the sensationalization into reality.
The reality is that the appeal process can, intentionally or unintentionally, take longer than the suspension itself. Since none of this "moderation" is out in the open and everyone fears talking about it cause they think they'll get sent to the RV, the status quo is maintained.

Your post essentially says, "Move on. Nothing to see here."

I disagree with that. Note I've said I've never been suspended or even been warned I was close to being suspended, so I'm not arguing for myself here. I'm arguing for the process, which I think could be better.

My point is made, the horse is dead and being beaten. I'll back out unless something new and interesting brings me back.
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Old Nov 6, 2007, 10:56 am
  #40  
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Kanbear writes:

Punki is one such successful appeal. It may not have been as quick a process as she'dve liked but it happened.

I will reiterate: moderation affects a very very small subset of FTers. The vast majority haven't ever even had a PM from a volunteer acting in an official capacity, much less an official warning.
Well you can actually count me (and my husband) among the teeny, tiny little subset of FlyerTalkers who have both A. been suspended, and B. Never received an official (or even unofficial) warning prior thereto.

I am hoping that since our overturned suspensions, and maybe even partially because of them, that the moderator team has tightened up on themselves, making clearer guidelines, investigating their suspicions more carefully, and conferring with one another in greater depth before taking action. That would be good for everybody, but especially for the efficacy of the moderator team.

It would also be a wonderful thing if the moderator team established a consistent method of communication with the general membership. You know, something like, "We had a meeting in Phoenix last week to discuss how to better serve the FlyerTalk Membership. Here are some of the policies that we discussed, and decisions that we made. ................................. We welcome your input and feedback in order to do a better job in the future."

Given patience, and a sincere effort at trying to understand one another's positions, there are probably very, very few instances, except for blatant spamming or posting of obscenities, where suspension is actually necessary.

Open communication--talking and listening, really trying to understand one another--is always a good thing. Shoot it might even result in whirled peas.

Last edited by Punki; Nov 6, 2007 at 11:06 am
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Old Nov 6, 2007, 4:45 pm
  #41  
 
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Overall, I think that the moderators have done a great job in keeping topics on base, repremanding those few that are inappropriate and reorganzing the wealth of info here on FT.

Often, I suspect, when the moderators seem heavy handed is to people that are not accustomed to the rules or just new. I always encourage people that when they make a decision to spend a moment to state why so that people understand the reasoning behind the decision and this often is a miss key part to any relationship or ornganization.
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Old Nov 6, 2007, 4:57 pm
  #42  
 
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Originally Posted by flyertalk
This question submitted by member Punki:
There is much public and private grumbling about heavey-handed moderation, and the taboo against discussing modators policies on FlyerTalk.

What would you suggest would make moderation more palatable to the general membership?
Hi
This questions seems to rasie it head each year during the elctions in some form or another. What you deem heavy handed might not seem that way to me or someone else.

I have experienced moderation myself, I cant possibly comment on the outcome but if it does happen then a FULL explination will be given to the reason. I hold my hat up to the moderators, its not an easy job.

I do feel that there are not enough moderators in certain forums and this in itself can cause problems.

As for complaining about moderators well there is a process for that, but I would say that the process IMHO does not seem to be as quick as I would personally like it.

regards
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Old Nov 6, 2007, 6:21 pm
  #43  
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I'll step in here to correct any misunderstanding that other members may infer from this. I personally made the suspension and return decisions of Punki, not the Moderators. I was also involved in reviewing the returning membership status of Hunki as well. As for never receiving warnings. In reality, the Moderators don't have any control over that. The Moderators employ a database hosted by the House of Miles into which warnings and notices are recorded and those notices are then sent out automatically by the system. This way, we can actually see that notices were sent, not to rely on others to say they were. There are times when these notices are sent to either an older email address the member has on file within their FlyerTalk record which has not been updated by the member or lost somewhere in cyberspace either with spam traps, clogged mailboxes, etc. But we do have records in the database that warnings were sent. We are always sorry that our system cannot positively guarantee delivery of such important information, but the system eliminates many of the possible bottlenecks.

Thanks for understanding the the decision that Punki is referring to here was mine and mine alone. And to Punki's credit, she has redeemed herself and returned a valuable member. And that Hunki guy is a pretty good fellow himself. Hopefully these types of issues will not be part of the remaining debate sessions.

Originally Posted by Punki
Kanbear writes:
Well you can actually count me (and my husband) among the teeny, tiny little subset of FlyerTalkers who have both A. been suspended, and B. Never received an official (or even unofficial) warning prior thereto.

I am hoping that since our overturned suspensions, and maybe even partially because of them, that the moderator team has tightened up on themselves, making clearer guidelines, investigating their suspicions more carefully, and conferring with one another in greater depth before taking action. That would be good for everybody, but especially for the efficacy of the moderator team.

It would also be a wonderful thing if the moderator team established a consistent method of communication with the general membership. You know, something like, "We had a meeting in Phoenix last week to discuss how to better serve the FlyerTalk Membership. Here are some of the policies that we discussed, and decisions that we made. ................................. We welcome your input and feedback in order to do a better job in the future."

Given patience, and a sincere effort at trying to understand one another's positions, there are probably very, very few instances, except for blatant spamming or posting of obscenities, where suspension is actually necessary.

Open communication--talking and listening, really trying to understand one another--is always a good thing. Shoot it might even result in whirled peas.
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Old Nov 6, 2007, 6:46 pm
  #44  
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Thank you, Randy, for that information. Since neither Hunki nor I have never received a warning, I had no idea that there was a system that caused warnings to be sent. When was that system put into place? How does that work?

Do the moderators first just discuss the post at issue with the member in question, or is a warning automatically generated when they first contact a member regarding a questionable post? One Candidate mentioned that he sometimes exchanges up to as many as 20 PMs with a member in order to resolve a questionable situation, which, BTW, I think is very admirable. In that instance, does the member get 20 warning notices?

In each and every election we have held so far, the subjects that garner far and away the most interest are those that deal with moderation. It is clear that people are very concerned about moderation and how it works. Any and all information that the moderator team can share with the general membership will go a long way to further greater understanding.

When enhancements like this are made to the moderation system, it would be wonderful if they could be announced.
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Old Nov 6, 2007, 6:54 pm
  #45  
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I'll relate how I do it. Most of this is theory that I've never needed to practice. I typically informally warn a member via PM if there is a problem. Sometimes I give the member some time to correct a post, but if it's going to cause an avalanche I'll just delete it and PM the member.

Ignoring that warning by repeating the behavior draws a formal warning, more or less the same as the informal except recorded in the database.

Ignoring that warning draws a 7-day suspension. Something way over the line and obviously intentional will draw an immediate suspension.

The next violation draws a 30-day suspension, and after that it's a permanent suspension. Any suspensions can be appealed to Randy.

That's the procedure in a nutshell, as I understand it. I've only issued one suspension in 2.5 years, that one for 7 days, so it's not like this is anything I need to be fully precise on.

Oh, I almost forgot. Spammers and bots draw immediate permanent suspension, but nobody actually reading FT falls into that category.

Does this clear things up?
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