Question 2: Palatable Moderation

 
Old Nov 9, 2007, 1:14 pm
  #61  
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in PALMYRA, PA, USA
Posts: 58,447
I was chatting with another Flyertalker about moderation yesterday and he made a really good point that I like a lot:

Moderators should see themselves as and act like tour guides rather than rent-a-cops. They should help direct people and show them around, gently nudge misbehaving visitors and pick up the trash when they see it but in all instances be polite, nice and accommodating.

I have no idea if this concept is included in the secret moderator guidelines/best practices or not but this is a standard that many, but not all, moderators live up to IMHO. I know there is nothing that anyone but Randy and the Moderators themselves can do to get them all to act this way, but I still like the concept.
kokonutz is online now  
Old Nov 9, 2007, 1:22 pm
  #62  
nsx
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Hyatt Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,572
Originally Posted by kokonutz
I have no idea if this concept is included in the secret moderator guidelines/best practices or not but this is a standard that many, but not all, moderators live up to IMHO. I know there is nothing that anyone but Randy and the Moderators themselves can do to get them all to act this way, but I still like the concept.
kokonutz, moderation best practices are clearly the purview of Randy and the moderators. Randy can fire any moderator at any time. Unlike the Terms of Service, this has nothing to do with the TalkBoard.
nsx is offline  
Old Nov 9, 2007, 1:28 pm
  #63  
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in PALMYRA, PA, USA
Posts: 58,447
Originally Posted by nsx
kokonutz, moderation best practices are clearly the purview of Randy and the moderators. Randy can fire any moderator at any time. Unlike the Terms of Service, this has nothing to do with the TalkBoard.
Well sure, but the question was "What would you suggest would make moderation more palatable to the general membership?"

So....nothing wrong with making a friendly suggestion, no?
kokonutz is online now  
Old Nov 9, 2007, 1:44 pm
  #64  
nsx
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Hyatt Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,572
Originally Posted by kokonutz
Well sure, but the question was "What would you suggest would make moderation more palatable to the general membership?"

So....nothing wrong with making a friendly suggestion, no?
Point taken. If a moderator consistently fails to be polite, nice, and accommodating, Randy should consider replacing that moderator or adding additional moderators to share the workload. This might be a sign of burnout.

BTW, your answer on the "Unique Talent Contributions" was hilarious!
nsx is offline  
Old Nov 10, 2007, 2:25 pm
  #65  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: A Southern locale that ain't the South.
Programs: Bah, HUMBUG!
Posts: 8,014
Originally Posted by Punki
I don't know of anyone who despises moderation and certainly no candidate who has voiced any opinion of that nature. Moderators are absolutely necessary and almost all of them do a great job. IIRC I happened to among the very first people on FlyerTalk who ever suggested that we develop moderators, and that was because it was apparent that we needed them. (For those of you who weren't around in those days, there were some clowns who would jump on the boards on the weekend and let loose with some pretty wild stuff, knowing that Randy would not be able to deal with it until Monday.)

In this particular election many candidates have rather emotionally railed against TalkBoard overseeing moderation, but I don't think that there has been one single instance where any candidate has suggested that TalkBoard should oversee moderation. I did suggest that in the future we need to develop some sort of board to review suspensions after Randy is gone, but it was very clear in my suggestion that that body would be totally separate from TalkBoard.

IMHO, people want to know more about moderation because it has been held in secret for far too long. It needs to open up. Obviously, not opening the moderator discussion boards, but opening up information so that the general membership understands the moderation procedures, plans and goals. How hard would it be to have the the moderators report to the general membership when they make a policy decision? People trust what they understand and fear what they don't understand. It would be very much in the best interest of both the moderation team and the general membership for the moderators to communicate as much information as they possibly could to help the members understand their positions.

We need to get past the point where every time that someone makes a suggestion for improving moderation that that suggstion is immediately interpreted as moderator bashing. There is room for all of us to improve. Honestly, nobody's perfect.

Actually this is not quite true it seems. Others supported moderators but you seemed to feel that FTers could moderate themselves.

I would think you might wish to try something new as opposed to voicing the same arguments you've put forth repeatedly over the past seven years. I must say; as someone who's been on what was the forerunner of TalkBoard and someone who's been a very valued, venerable and vocal member of the community, I don't see how you hope to change things now given that over the past seven years your message has not altered and you were unable to effect change during previous time in an advisory capacity to FlyerTalk or during any of your time on FT prior to now. Given this, what will be different this time should you be elected to TalkBoard?

To be certain, it seems you've never been in support of moderation. Even in 2003 you felt FlyerTalk to be overmoderated.

I find this to be at odds with your stance while a moderator at MoreMiles. You were one of the founders of that board; did you have a hand in writing the TOS? I note specifically the quote
Originally Posted by MoreMiles
However, we reserve the right to move or remove posts at our discretion and without explanation.
I was a member at MoreMiles. SVPII invited me over and I enjoyed using the board as a change of pace. Yet, I also recall incidents where you moderated posts at will and without warning... and did not tolerate questioning. This thread is quite enlightening. Why is what was acceptable in that venue not acceptable here?

As to your complaints about moderators and the ban Randy instituted on discussion of moderation; every moderator is very open to suggestions and comments as well as corrections. If they aren't, they shouldn't be on staff.

While comment and discussion on specific moderator actions can't be held in a public forum any longer, that wasn't always so. It may be that the current prohibition is due to the absolutely constant discussion of such topics at about the same time as the prior post as well as discussion here and here. Questions asked and answered many times over, it seems. It also seems that your issues are more with the entire concept of moderation which, as you just stated above, you feel necessary.

Finally; while now you seem not to favor closed TalkBoard deliberations, in the past you were quite defensive of closed places for deliberations. You also had a closed moderator forum at MoreMiles which was not accessible by the general membership. Again, why was that necessary if what you say here is true?

Last edited by kanebear; Nov 10, 2007 at 8:48 pm
kanebear is offline  
Old Nov 10, 2007, 2:45 pm
  #66  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 15,288
Originally Posted by nsx
kokonutz, moderation best practices are clearly the purview of Randy and the moderators. Randy can fire any moderator at any time. Unlike the Terms of Service, this has nothing to do with the TalkBoard.
Who is responsible for enforcing the TOS? Right.

Why is there such fear and the feeling of "taboo" surrounding the discussion of moderation all over FT? Is this really healthy? Just because Randy has put a ban in place doesn't mean that these questions in the debate shouldn't be answered by candidates. Since Randy is processing the questions, if there's one he doesn't want put forward, he would simply not put it forward. Since Randy DID put the question forward, people that use "policy" to skirt answering the question posed look to me like they are using the policy to avoid the question.
RichMSN is offline  
Old Nov 10, 2007, 3:12 pm
  #67  
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Southern California
Programs: DL: 3.8 MM, Marriott: Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 24,575
Originally Posted by RichMSN
Why is there such fear and the feeling of "taboo" surrounding the discussion of moderation all over FT? Is this really healthy?
Ironically enough, Randy answered a similar question just today in this thread. And he's answered some variation of the same question numerous times over the years.

It seem to be a popular question for some reason.

Not to hide behind Randy's skirts here but it is pretty much his call that moderators and moderation not be a topic on FlyerTalk. It's not something the moderator group decided upon and instituted.

In fact, there are a number of moderators, myself included, who would have no problem with a forum or thread where moderation practices could be discussed in a civil manner. This is not a reality yet and I don't know if will ever happen. But not all moderators are adverse to a civil, rational discussion of the subject.

And, I nearly forgot, there is a thread on FlyerTalk where discussion of moderation is not only allowed but encouraged. With the "catchy" name of Moderators Guilty of Premature Evacuation, this thread with over 500 posts has existed for nearly five years.

This is all thanks to an outstanding group of Delta moderators who have allowed this often contentious thread to continue. obscure2k, RSSrsvp, and Canarsie are the current DL mod's overseeing this thread. But bdschobel and gleff, previously DL mods, are also to be recognized.

Just an FYI for those not aware of either Randy's answer on moderation above or the moderation thread in the Delta Forum.
Cholula is offline  
Old Nov 10, 2007, 3:28 pm
  #68  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: A Southern locale that ain't the South.
Programs: Bah, HUMBUG!
Posts: 8,014
Originally Posted by RichMSN
Who is responsible for enforcing the TOS? Right.

Why is there such fear and the feeling of "taboo" surrounding the discussion of moderation all over FT? Is this really healthy? Just because Randy has put a ban in place doesn't mean that these questions in the debate shouldn't be answered by candidates. Since Randy is processing the questions, if there's one he doesn't want put forward, he would simply not put it forward. Since Randy DID put the question forward, people that use "policy" to skirt answering the question posed look to me like they are using the policy to avoid the question.
There's no fear. It was simply beaten to death over the years and unfortunately a few bad apples resulted in the current ban we have today. Blame those who came before and burnt the bridge, the toll-house and the road signs to boot.
kanebear is offline  
Old Nov 10, 2007, 3:35 pm
  #69  
nsx
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Hyatt Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,572
Originally Posted by RichMSN
Why is there such fear and the feeling of "taboo" surrounding the discussion of moderation all over FT?
The fear is that the discussion might get too heated and that FT could lose some valuable members. The benefit of having such discussions, which are unrelated to miles and travel, probably does not outweigh that risk. It's the same reason you don't discuss politics at parties: you could lose a friend completely unnecessarily.
nsx is offline  
Old Nov 10, 2007, 8:04 pm
  #70  
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in PALMYRA, PA, USA
Posts: 58,447
It is pretty clear to me that as Randy continues to gather the moderators together on a regular basis and the moderators create their own guidelines and best practices that the elected Talkboard members ought to attempt to insert themselves into that process and do a better job of explaining to the moderators AND the posters what the Talkboard collectively hopes/expects each forum to be about and then report back to the posters about those efforts on a regular basis. Because if they don't then pretty soon the Talkboard is going to become pretty irrelevant as the moderators decide for themsleves either individually or collectively what each of the forums and FT in general ought to be all about rather than the Talkboard making those decisions and recommendations to Randy. @:-)

Now if I were a moderator I'd probably have to tell me at this point that I am crazy...that the moderators are not operating any black helicopters and that all they have is the best interests of Flyertalk at heart as both posters and volunteers as they fill the vacuum that the Talkboad has left in terms of clearly defining the forums and what is and is not appropriate in each of them.

But then again I am not a moderator....I'm a candidate for the Talkboard so I think I'll refrain from calling myself crazy and let others take that on.
kokonutz is online now  
Old Nov 10, 2007, 8:17 pm
  #71  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: A Southern locale that ain't the South.
Programs: Bah, HUMBUG!
Posts: 8,014
Originally Posted by kokonutz
It is pretty clear to me that as Randy continues to gather the moderators together on a regular basis and the moderators create their own guidelines and best practices that the elected Talkboard members ought to attempt to insert themselves into that process and do a better job of explaining to the moderators AND the posters what the Talkboard collectively hopes/expects each forum to be about and then report back to the posters about those efforts on a regular basis. Because if they don't then pretty soon the Talkboard is going to become pretty irrelevant as the moderators decide for themsleves either individually or collectively what each of the forums and FT in general ought to be all about rather than the Talkboard making those decisions and recommendations to Randy. @:-)

Now if I were a moderator I'd probably have to tell me at this point that I am crazy...that the moderators are not operating any black helicopters and that all they have is the best interests of Flyertalk at heart as both posters and volunteers as they fill the vacuum that the Talkboad has left in terms of clearly defining the forums and what is and is not appropriate in each of them.

But then again I am not a moderator....I'm a candidate for the Talkboard so I think I'll refrain from calling myself crazy and let others take that on.
A few salient points you miss here, my esteemed colleague and beer quaffer from the east: Talkboard doesn't weigh in on moderation issues as that's the way Randy set it up and the way he wants it. Should you get elected, you're going to have to lobby him; even if the TalkBoard votes 8/0 to eliminate moderators entirely, it's not going to amount to a hill of beans as at present moderation is outside TalkBoard's mandate according to Our Great and Revered Benefactor's design. So if you're running on that premise, you're making promises you'll never be able to keep. Indeed, you don't need to be on Talkboard to follow through with those goals, you can lobby Randy any time as you please. Indeed, you already are!

As for the directions various fora take, perhaps you'd quaffed one too many and your vision was blurred. We addressed that issue. The members determine the flavor of the fora. The moderators merely ensure those who have no maturity and too much time on their hands don't get to play games with FlyerTalkers here to discuss points and miles. Of course, that's nowhere near as interesting as conspiracy theories, intrigues and sub rosa information leaks... but it could be that all that just speaks to boredom and loss of focus on points and miles.

And with that, I do believe we've taken a Stinger missile to your black helicopter. Next!
kanebear is offline  
Old Nov 10, 2007, 9:06 pm
  #72  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 15,288
Originally Posted by kanebear
A few salient points you miss here, my esteemed colleague and beer quaffer from the east: Talkboard doesn't weigh in on moderation issues as that's the way Randy set it up and the way he wants it. Should you get elected, you're going to have to lobby him; even if the TalkBoard votes 8/0 to eliminate moderators entirely, it's not going to amount to a hill of beans as at present moderation is outside TalkBoard's mandate according to Our Great and Revered Benefactor's design. So if you're running on that premise, you're making promises you'll never be able to keep. Indeed, you don't need to be on Talkboard to follow through with those goals, you can lobby Randy any time as you please. Indeed, you already are!

As for the directions various fora take, perhaps you'd quaffed one too many and your vision was blurred. We addressed that issue. The members determine the flavor of the fora. The moderators merely ensure those who have no maturity and too much time on their hands don't get to play games with FlyerTalkers here to discuss points and miles. Of course, that's nowhere near as interesting as conspiracy theories, intrigues and sub rosa information leaks... but it could be that all that just speaks to boredom and loss of focus on points and miles.

And with that, I do believe we've taken a Stinger missile to your black helicopter. Next!
Points and miles, points and miles. Bah. That phrase is dragged out everytime a discussion takes a direction someone doesn't want it to go. Some of us don't care if things are completely unrelated to points and miles.

What about CommunityBuzz, TravelBuzz, TS&S, OMNI, etc? They have NOTHING directly to do with points and miles and yet these forums exist, and thrive.

The direction the forums take doesn't completely fall to the members -- otherwise nothing would really be OT, would it? So who gets to decide then? An individual moderator? Or the member-elected TB? Or Randy?

Some are fond of saying the black helicopters don't exist, but I think that without more transparency, who really knows?

Back on topic: I still don't see why one can't run on a platform that may not be possible in the end -- koko may merely be saying that in representing the membership he will push in a certain direction. That's good enough for me, but he's had my vote from day one.

Last edited by RichMSN; Nov 10, 2007 at 9:42 pm
RichMSN is offline  
Old Nov 10, 2007, 9:08 pm
  #73  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 15,288
Originally Posted by nsx
The fear is that the discussion might get too heated and that FT could lose some valuable members. The benefit of having such discussions, which are unrelated to miles and travel, probably does not outweigh that risk. It's the same reason you don't discuss politics at parties: you could lose a friend completely unnecessarily.
I discuss politics with all my friends. Friends are people you don't worry about offending, after all, since they are your friends.
RichMSN is offline  
Old Nov 10, 2007, 10:39 pm
  #74  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Commuting around the mid-atlantic and rust-belt on any number of RJs
Programs: TSA Random Selectee Platinum, * Gold, SPG/HH/MR mid-tier, and a tiny bag of pretzels.
Posts: 9,255
Originally Posted by kokonutz
I
Now if I were a moderator I'd probably have to tell me at this point that I am crazy...that the moderators are not operating any black helicopters and that all they have is the best interests of Flyertalk at heart as both posters and volunteers as they fill the vacuum that the Talkboad has left in terms of clearly defining the forums and what is and is not appropriate in each of them.
Let's say I was personally issued a black helicopter by the House of Miles. Randy himself dropped it right off in front of my office, we quaffed some Centinela, and took my license to moderate, fired up the wi-fi in the chopper, and went to work as a Moderator. Hey--when I move up your way shortly, you can even file a noise complaint .

Quid-pro-quo time: I'll let you fly the thing now (between now and the time the election ends)--but only if we agree to discuss things that either of us (in the role of Talkboard members) can actually influence and cease pandering for the populist and anti-moderation vote.

Deal? Will it cure the insatiable appetite to insist that there is a black-curtain, much less a man behind it? I get it, and even why, but that horse has been glue for so long that your kids are putting their Christmas projects together with it in school on Monday and it'll be on your fridge by midweek..

(for the humor impaired, mods are not issued black helicopters, if mods were issued black helicopters I would not fly after drinking Tequila, and I don't remember if Randy is a Centinela man or not--I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm incorrect on any of these, especially the tequila, as I had to leave the chopper parked and cab it home the last time I sampled sippin' tequila with Senior Petersen)

But then again I am not a moderator....I'm a candidate for the Talkboard so I think I'll refrain from calling myself crazy and let others take that on.
It's got nothing to do with being crazy. Campaigning on the populist/anti-moderation platform has proven successful in the past--you are nothing if not a crafty student of politics . With that said, it's kind of like I mention in an earlier milepost: "It's akin to running for dog-catcher on a platform of income tax reform." (that's not to imply a Talkboard member is akin to dog-catcher, I simply needed an analogy with maximum effect)

And for MSNRich's benefit: I'm not going to encourage people to vote for me in support of a premise I cannot possibly impact while on the Talkboard. I fail to understand, from a pragmatic standpoint, why anyone would. I understand the politics of the move, but I guess I'm more concerned with improving Flyertalk rather than doing a political dance.....
ClueByFour is offline  
Old Nov 10, 2007, 10:43 pm
  #75  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: A Southern locale that ain't the South.
Programs: Bah, HUMBUG!
Posts: 8,014
Originally Posted by RichMSN
Points and miles, points and miles. Bah. That phrase is dragged out everytime a discussion takes a direction someone doesn't want it to go. Some of us don't care if things are completely unrelated to points and miles.

What about CommunityBuzz, TravelBuzz, TS&S, OMNI, etc? They have NOTHING directly to do with points and miles and yet these forums exist, and thrive.

The direction the forums take doesn't completely fall to the members -- otherwise nothing would really be OT, would it? So who gets to decide then? An individual moderator? Or the member-elected TB? Or Randy?

Some are fond of saying the black helicopters don't exist, but I think that without more transparency, who really knows?

Back on topic: I still don't see why one can't run on a platform that may not be possible in the end -- koko may merely be saying that in representing the membership he will push in a certain direction. That's good enough for me, but he's had my vote from day one.
There's a very marked difference between attempting to control direction of conversational flow and correcting sensationalistic half-truths and conjecture. Of course every time someone speaks reasonably we have new fresh conspiracy theories and calls for transparency to see what lies underneath. I really know. There is no spoon.

Quite obviously one can run on a platform of false promises and hysteria that will be impossible to implement. Pushing against the sky to keep it from falling may be a noble endeavour but it won't do much one way or the other.

I, for one, prefer to have representatives that are up front about what they can achieve and what they can't. Ideas and ideals are great but they don't make a whit of difference if one can't make rubber meet road. If voting for unicorns and lollipops floats your boat, more power to you.

Last edited by kanebear; Nov 11, 2007 at 1:05 pm
kanebear is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.