Question 2: Palatable Moderation

 
Old Nov 5, 2007, 11:27 am
  #16  
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Kanebear writes:

Then there's the issue of discussion of moderation. Here, at least, we can discuss concepts and abstracts regarding moderation. The only prohibition regards discussion of specific moderator action at Flyertalk.
You are absolutely right, Kanebear, that those are the rules, and rules with which I wholeheartedly agree. We should be allowed to discuss concepts and abstracts of moderation openly and honestly, without discussing specific moderator actions.

In practice, however, the FlyerTalk moderators have effectively rewritten the rule to shut down any discussion of moderation, no matter how abstract, as is clearly pointed out in this recent post by Dovster. Just as an exercise, go to the ORP forum and search the word "moderator" for the past three years and you will see that the vast majority of discussions are simply shut down, period.

This is unhealthy for a several reasons: First, the sheriff should never be in a position to rewrite the laws. That type of system is doomed to corruption. Second, the membership feels frustration at being given no forum in which to express its veiws. Third, the moderators suffer from lack of member input.

Yes, I know that the moderators have their own forum where they talk to one another, and yes, I know that the moderators have meetings where they sit around and talk to one another, but that is not enough. They really need input from the general membership, and we have no vehicle to allows for that stream of input. Sometimes it seems like the moderators actively avoid input. Let me give you an example.

While attending a FlyerTalk dinner, another member came over to our table and sat down. There was a moderator at the table, but the other member had no idea she was a moderator. When he asked question, "What do you think about moderation on the XXX forum?" the moderator jumped, said, "I just don't have to sit hear and listen to this garbage," and stomped out of the restaurant. This would have been a golden opportunity for her to get input, but she refused to even listen.

I think that each of us in a leadership role, whether it be as a TalkBoard member, or as a moderator, has a responsibility to seek out the opinions of the general membership and do everything in our power to assure that we are acting in their best interests.

We all need to carefully listen to one another, try to really understand one another's positions, and then work together to build the best possible community that we can.
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 1:04 pm
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by Punki
Kanebear writes:



You are absolutely right, Kanebear, that those are the rules, and rules with which I wholeheartedly agree. We should be allowed to discuss concepts and abstracts of moderation openly and honestly, without discussing specific moderator actions.

In practice, however, the FlyerTalk moderators have effectively rewritten the rule to shut down any discussion of moderation, no matter how abstract, as is clearly pointed out in this recent post by Dovster. Just as an exercise, go to the ORP forum and search the word "moderator" for the past three years and you will see that the vast majority of discussions are simply shut down, period.

This is unhealthy for a several reasons: First, the sheriff should never be in a position to rewrite the laws. That type of system is doomed to corruption. Second, the membership feels frustration at being given no forum in which to express its veiws. Third, the moderators suffer from lack of member input.
This is untrue. Moderators did not rewrite anything. ORP is Randy Petersen's forum. It is run as he wishes and directs. He directed that such threads be closed. As Dovster so aptly notes, such threads get contentious. I disagree with him that such contention is healthy. Instead, I believe it is unhealthy as it almost always results in heated discussions boiling over into unmitigated flaming and personal attacks.

Moderators receive quite a lot of member input. It simply isn't subject to public review and criticism. That's as it should be. If I have an issue with a police officer giving me a speeding ticket, I'll take it up with the officer and on up the line to the police chief if necessary. I absolutely don't need nor do I want Joe-Blow-Don't-Know halfway across town being able to put his two cents into the matter on how I deserved the ticket as driving is evil and we should all ride bicycles and sing Kumbayah. Were moderation such a problem for a majority of FT users, they'd be complaining to Flyertalk staff and Randy. Have you ever asked how many complaints have been received from unique members (as opposed to those merely creating duplicate user names to prove a point)?

Originally Posted by Punki
Yes, I know that the moderators have their own forum where they talk to one another, and yes, I know that the moderators have meetings where they sit around and talk to one another, but that is not enough. They really need input from the general membership, and we have no vehicle to allows for that stream of input. Sometimes it seems like the moderators actively avoid input. Let me give you an example.

While attending a FlyerTalk dinner, another member came over to our table and sat down. There was a moderator at the table, but the other member had no idea she was a moderator. When he asked question, "What do you think about moderation on the XXX forum?" the moderator jumped, said, "I just don't have to sit hear and listen to this garbage," and stomped out of the restaurant. This would have been a golden opportunity for her to get input, but she refused to even listen.
Again, moderators currently get quite a lot of input from the general membership. It's simply not made public. If moderators do not act upon member concerns, I would hope the members would raise the issue with FlyerTalk staff and admins. I know that Randy is very accessible and approachable. He is also very even-handed and fair. If he declines to address an issue and other members don't have a problem, why should that necessitate a change to how FlyerTalk works? Simply because you do not know whether or not other FTers take issue as the information is not public does not make it so. Were FT so problematic, most would not complain. They'd simply leave. That, obviously, has not been the case. I suggest FT and TalkBoard have far more contentious issues to consider than moderation.

Originally Posted by Punki
I think that each of us in a leadership role, whether it be as a TalkBoard member, or as a moderator, has a responsibility to seek out the opinions of the general membership and do everything in our power to assure that we are acting in their best interests.

We all need to carefully listen to one another, try to really understand one another's positions, and then work together to build the best possible community that we can.
See above. This already occurs on a daily basis. It seems that you mostly take issue with the information not being made public. Yet many decisions that are made in government and business aren't transparent and the supporting information isn't made public. It's a fact of daily life. Indeed, Talkboard does not have this level of transparency. As a member of FT, I don't want moderation actions and sanctions made public whether they involve me or not.
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 1:05 pm
  #18  
 
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Originally Posted by Punki
This is unhealthy for a several reasons: First, the sheriff should never be in a position to rewrite the laws.
There is not a moderator on Flyertalk who believes that he or she can unilaterally "rewrite the laws." Not a one. Randy is the ultimate authority anything that happens on FT (or was, for most of the history of FT such as things stand) I really think you need to address your concerns with him on this issue. I believe you have done so in the past--would you feel comfortable sharing the outcome of those discussions and having Randy corroborate the substance thereof?


That type of system is doomed to corruption. Second, the membership feels frustration at being given no forum in which to express its veiws. Third, the moderators suffer from lack of member input.
Since I'm a moderator, and have been for quite some time, I can assure you that your postulation that moderators suffer from lack of member input is incorrect. Moderators have more interaction with individual members than many (if not most) members of FT, period. It comes with the territory.

As a member, I can assure you that I don't feel particularly frustrated with a lack of a "free for all" forum. I can also assure you that the only people who share that particular "want," are, in my experience, those who are chronically dissatisfied with moderator action. In fact, a quick perusal of the "Only Randy Petersen" forum will illustrate this perfectly: there are roughly 10 members who have a long-term and seemingly pointless issue with FT moderation. Almost universally, those members have had multiple disciplinary actions taken, and those actions have almost universally been upheld by Randy himself. I don't believe that to be a coincidence.

Yes, I know that the moderators have their own forum where they talk to one another, and yes, I know that the moderators have meetings where they sit around and talk to one another, but that is not enough. They really need input from the general membership, and we have no vehicle to allows for that stream of input.
This is from the Flyertalk Guidelines and Rules. Everyone has to acknowledge them to become an FT member:

Our volunteer moderators are responsible for welcoming new members and assisting all members. They have been screened and were selected to serve based on their judgment and ability to uphold the FlyerTalk rules. If you have questions, contact a moderator. The moderators for each forum are listed at the bottom of that forum. Moderators are also labeled as such under their usernames when they post, and a full list can be found here.
Not only does a vehicle exist for that stream of input, the process has already been in place for years. And it works--I've used it--because in forums where I'm not a moderator, I (and every other mod) use the same system. When I have a question or a concern, I address it to the forum moderator, a Senior Moderator, and Randy, in that order. It's not difficult.

Now, I have not always agreed with what the other moderators, senior moderators, or Randy have had to say about a particular discussion. That will happen to me, you, and every other FT member from time to time--we won't always agree with the way things go. That's life, but to insinuate that there is no process to give input to a moderator is both wrong and way over the line.

Sometimes it seems like the moderators actively avoid input. Let me give you an example.

While attending a FlyerTalk dinner, another member came over to our table and sat down. There was a moderator at the table, but the other member had no idea she was a moderator. When he asked question, "What do you think about moderation on the XXX forum?" the moderator jumped, said, "I just don't have to sit hear and listen to this garbage," and stomped out of the restaurant. This would have been a golden opportunity for her to get input, but she refused to even listen.
Without hearing the other side of this, I simply don't believe this story. We've all heard about capricious bannings and being capriciously banned and I will admit that moderators are human--I'm not entirely convinced that even I'd want to be subject to that sort of thing for any significant length of time without getting up for a breather. With that having been said, I've never witnessed the type of behavior you have described, and have logged many more hours in the company of moderators than most.

I think that each of us in a leadership role, whether it be as a TalkBoard member, or as a moderator, has a responsibility to seek out the opinions of the general membership and do everything in our power to assure that we are acting in their best interests.
On this we agree--in fact, I advocate exactly that in my platform.

However, I'd urge you to contact a moderator via e-mail or PM (as the guidelines point out) rather than calling them capricious; apply to become a moderator rather than run for Talkboard. Be cognizant of the processes that FT already has in place before rushing to change them (another plank!). But above all else, don't run for Talkboard on a platform that cannot possibly be fulfilled (short of a complete about-face on Randy/IB's part).

Running on that platform (from what I've seen) is not only a disservice to the FT membership, but will polarize the relationship between Talkboard and Talkteam (mods). That does not benefit the FT membership at all--which is why Talkboard and Talkteam exist. I know that's why I've been a mod for years and am now asking the FT membership for it's collective endorsement--to make FT a better place. Inciting invective between groups that are working hard to improve FT for all is probably not a good idea.
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 1:55 pm
  #19  
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Originally Posted by ClueByFour
There is not a moderator on Flyertalk who believes that he or she can unilaterally "rewrite the laws." Not a one.
How do you then explain the 'evolution' of S.P.A.M. being a forum about alternate points and mile currencies to being about free laundry detergent samples?

The TB never made that decision. It was made by moderators who decided those kinds of posts were ok to the point where postings about free samples has practically taken over the forum.

And for reasons that bewilder me to this day the current TB refused to address that issue and the alteration of that forum by the forum moderators from a forum about one thing into a forum about another thing.

The bottom line here is that unless the TB asserts its opinion the moderators by default decide what a forum is and is not.
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 2:14 pm
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Originally Posted by kokonutz
How do you then explain the 'evolution' of S.P.A.M. being a forum about alternate points and mile currencies to being about free laundry detergent samples?

The TB never made that decision. It was made by moderators who decided those kinds of posts were ok to the point where postings about free samples has practically taken over the forum.

And for reasons that bewilder me to this day the current TB refused to address that issue and the alteration of that forum by the forum moderators from a forum about one thing into a forum about another thing.

The bottom line here is that unless the TB asserts its opinion the moderators by default decide what a forum is and is not.
Why is the evolution of S.P.A.M. a problem? How do you know that was a unilateral decision? Seems to me more that as true SPAM sites died out and the forum traffic dwindled, FT members themselves changed the direction of the forum and the moderators didn't impede them. I applaud such freedom.
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 2:32 pm
  #21  
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Originally Posted by kanebear
Why is the evolution of S.P.A.M. a problem? How do you know that was a unilateral decision? Seems to me more that as true SPAM sites died out and the forum traffic dwindled, FT members themselves changed the direction of the forum and the moderators didn't impede them. I applaud such freedom.
If this is the best case (posters themselves are free to 'evolve' forums so long as they find a moderator who is willing to go along with it) why is there at Talkboard at all?

You seem to be saying that semi-professional moderators have made the job of the Talkboard irrelevant.
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 2:50 pm
  #22  
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Help!!

We need more questions so we can quit beating the same subjects senseless.
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 3:03 pm
  #23  
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Originally Posted by kokonutz
How do you then explain the 'evolution' of S.P.A.M. being a forum about alternate points and mile currencies to being about free laundry detergent samples?
If this case of forum drift is the most egregious example of defiance of the TalkBoard that you can come up with, I can't see that it's worth making this issue the core of your campaign.

My core issue is related to moderation, but only indirectly. The moderators and TalkBoard need to work together to suggest and approve, respectively, clarifications and examples for the Terms of Service so that everyone has approximately the same idea of what behavior is expected.

Moderation on FT is competent and effective. Modifying the Terms of Service will make life easier for moderators and for people who continually find themselves on the edge of disciplinary action, but for everyone else, FT will be exactly the same place as before. That's as it should be. Otherwise we would be fixing what isn't broken, and I'm certainly not proposing that.
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 3:20 pm
  #24  
 
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Originally Posted by Cholula
Help!!

We need more questions so we can quit beating the same subjects senseless.
It's election season and you don't have your incumbent stump speech hammered out?

For shame .

This repetition of course coudl be avoided, in the irony of ironies, with a moderator for this forum.

*rimshot*--I'm here all week, tip your waiters, waitresses, and bartenders.
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 3:50 pm
  #25  
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We need more questions so we can quit beating the same subjects senseless.
Are we beating subjects senseless or are we merely beating senseless subjects?
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 5:44 pm
  #26  
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Originally Posted by nsx
If this case of forum drift is the most egregious example of defiance of the TalkBoard that you can come up with, I can't see that it's worth making this issue the core of your campaign.

My core issue is related to moderation, but only indirectly. The moderators and TalkBoard need to work together to suggest and approve, respectively, clarifications and examples for the Terms of Service so that everyone has approximately the same idea of what behavior is expected.

Moderation on FT is competent and effective. Modifying the Terms of Service will make life easier for moderators and for people who continually find themselves on the edge of disciplinary action, but for everyone else, FT will be exactly the same place as before. That's as it should be. Otherwise we would be fixing what isn't broken, and I'm certainly not proposing that.
You and I are not so far apart in our views, although yours are just seem so much more reasonable!!!!
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 10:29 pm
  #27  
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Originally Posted by kanebear
See above. This already occurs on a daily basis. It seems that you mostly take issue with the information not being made public. Yet many decisions that are made in government and business aren't transparent and the supporting information isn't made public. It's a fact of daily life. Indeed, Talkboard does not have this level of transparency. As a member of FT, I don't want moderation actions and sanctions made public whether they involve me or not.
If I were king, all moderator and TalkBoard actions would be made public. There is no need whatsoever for secrets around here. Completely unnecessary. On top of that, it would show that the moderators are reasonable for the most part and would give posters an idea of what brings about moderator action.

As far as I'm concerned, Punki can run on whatever platform she wants. Desiring change is the first step in making change happen.
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 10:40 pm
  #28  
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Originally Posted by RichMSN
If I were king, all moderator and TalkBoard actions would be made public. There is no need whatsoever for secrets around here.
I disagree as to moderator actions, where I have some experience. If a moderator asks someone for a favor, the recipient is much more likely to agree when the request is private rather than public. Private communication takes "face saving" partially out of the equation. This is crucial. Private communication is the invisible hand that keeps FT running smoothly, and it won't work even half as well if it has to be done in public.

As to TalkBoard actions, I don't yet see a reason they would benefit from being private. Nevertheless I'm confident that prior TalkBoards have good reasons for any decision to keep some actions private.
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 10:47 pm
  #29  
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Originally Posted by nsx
I disagree as to moderator actions, where I have some experience. If a moderator asks someone for a favor, the recipient is much more likely to agree when the request is private rather than public. Private communication takes "face saving" partially out of the equation. This is crucial. Private communication is the invisible hand that keeps FT running smoothly, and it won't work even half as well if it has to be done in public.

As to TalkBoard actions, I don't yet see a reason they would benefit from being private. Nevertheless I'm confident that prior TalkBoards have good reasons for any decision to keep some actions private.
I guess I need to be clear about what I posted. I would never expect all communications between a moderator and a poster be made public. I'm talking about all actions -- post deletions and editing (the editing is already quite public) and suspensions -- why and for how long.

Personally, I have never been a "problem" for moderators, however I am dismayed when any talk (in general) of moderation gets shut down. As a long-time moderator of another board, the more open the process, the better the board and the better posters adhere to the guidelines and TOS.
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Old Nov 5, 2007, 11:20 pm
  #30  
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Originally Posted by RichMSN
I guess I need to be clear about what I posted. I would never expect all communications between a moderator and a poster be made public. I'm talking about all actions -- post deletions and editing (the editing is already quite public) and suspensions -- why and for how long.
If you show what you deleted, it's not really deleted, is it? It's right there causing almost as much disruption as if the board were not moderated at all. If you show that a post was deleted without showing the content, that just raises distracting questions unrelated to the mission of FT and doesn't satisfy anyone.

Similarly if you publish rationale for suspensions that could impair the member's ability to rejoin FT successfully, with everyone letting bygones be bygones. I don't see any benefit that outweighs the damage to FT this proposal would cause.
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