Has Swiss lost it as a premium airline with a niché?

Old Nov 22, 2014, 7:59 am
  #1  
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Has Swiss lost it as a premium airline with a niché?

Dear FTers,

I have not set foot on a LX flight for over 2 years now. I had catastrophic service onboard, so I just gave it up altogether.

From the unbelievaably cheap and old offerings in the harware and catering in F on the A340 - on my last flight in F the food was somehow overly salty that even the FA said he had never seen anything like that, and they had 4 crew members try the food before coming to the realization that I was not being picky - it was indeed unedible.

And then there's the C seat and service. While for C the service is OK, the seats are falling behind. Yes, I know SN, DL, AC, AA all use them. But LX has always been the "premium airline" of Europe and the LH group, given its historic ties with Swissair and the fact that they operate a hub out of one of the wealthiest cities in the world.

I gave up completely on LX.

I mean, when IBERIA and AZ have better C seating than you, it is time to rethink your strategy...

They really need to up their game soon with the 77W or they will just become a second tier European airline. Even LH has made major changes and has a fantastic F product (at least).
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Old Nov 22, 2014, 11:20 am
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The tastes are so different…

I have spent many flights on LX in the last 4 years.
Except one flight (CAI-ZRH) in C where the crew was just OK; I had very good to excellent/outstanding crews, no matter if C or F.
In F, food has always been excellent.
I can sit and sleep very well in LX aircraft, no matter if old F, new F or C. Yes, I like the LX C seat.
OS may have the better video screen, but this is something I really don't care about. I do not watch movies. I take dinner, listen a bit of music on my iPod (here I have my favorite music - not the mainstream ........ you can find on IFEs) and then I sleep.
And on VIE-BKK in C, food was just horrible. On that day Do&Co was more of "Don't&K.O."

A few weeks ago, I had 2 long haul flights together with my sister, outbound in LH F, inbound in LX F. My sister too did prefer LX: better service and better food.
The new LH F seat and cabin are nice, but the LH crew was just more or less professional - not the perfect and warm service I am used from LX.

Recently I gave LH F another chance on FRA-HKG-FRA (B748). After the trip I said to myself "Nice but far from perfect service; it would have been better to book LX F."

And being HON since half a year now, HON recognition has been much much better at LX than at LH.
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Old Nov 22, 2014, 6:17 pm
  #3  
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Originally Posted by PetzLUX
The tastes are so different…

I have spent many flights on LX in the last 4 years.
Except one flight (CAI-ZRH) in C where the crew was just OK; I had very good to excellent/outstanding crews, no matter if C or F.
In F, food has always been excellent.
I can sit and sleep very well in LX aircraft, no matter if old F, new F or C. Yes, I like the LX C seat.
OS may have the better video screen, but this is something I really don't care about. I do not watch movies. I take dinner, listen a bit of music on my iPod (here I have my favorite music - not the mainstream ........ you can find on IFEs) and then I sleep.
And on VIE-BKK in C, food was just horrible. On that day Do&Co was more of "Don't&K.O."

A few weeks ago, I had 2 long haul flights together with my sister, outbound in LH F, inbound in LX F. My sister too did prefer LX: better service and better food.
The new LH F seat and cabin are nice, but the LH crew was just more or less professional - not the perfect and warm service I am used from LX.

Recently I gave LH F another chance on FRA-HKG-FRA (B748). After the trip I said to myself "Nice but far from perfect service; it would have been better to book LX F."

And being HON since half a year now, HON recognition has been much much better at LX than at LH.
Thinking outside of LH World....

Have you ever tested the Business Cirrus seats of AA 77W, CX, new AF? Or the Zodiac from IB, AZ, EY? The SQ super wide seats? Or even Virgin Atlantic service in UC?

Those are far away ahead of LX.

Management has to think outside of the box and aim to match the best. Beating UA C and F is hardly something to be proud of...
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Old Nov 22, 2014, 7:47 pm
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Originally Posted by GRUflyer
..I mean, when IBERIA and AZ have better C seating than you, it is time to rethink your strategy...
Well as long as LH keeps their seat, the in house competition is fairly mild.
They really need to up their game soon with the 77W or they will just become a second tier European airline...
Isn't LX' future as an LCC a done deal?

For a while an inflated C product will co-exist with an ultra-shabby coach product and maybe that is even a long-term sustainable model. But it doesn't keep LX from being a third tier legacy at its core.
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Old Nov 23, 2014, 7:01 am
  #5  
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I'm on the same page as PetzLUX, in general the service and quality on LX is good and I fly them pretty often. In particular I consider LX service more sincere than on LH.

BUT, I had to experience myself lately that looking outside the LH group broadens the sight. Not that the grass is always greener but there is grass too. Comparing LX C with EY C for example showed me how much better a C ride can be. And I'm not saying LX' C is bad. It is quite good in my opinion. The sad thing is that EY C is mostly even cheaper than LX' C. The only huge disadvantage is the desert break.

On one point I have to agree though, the old F on LX' A340 has become a joke. It's only acceptable if they would sell it for not more than 10% of an average business fare. And I'm pretty sure we're going to see such deals in the near future.

After all I would still consider LX a premium airline even though definitely not on the top of the scale.

Last edited by CheckInPeach; Nov 23, 2014 at 7:12 am
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Old Nov 23, 2014, 7:16 am
  #6  
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Originally Posted by GRUflyer
Dear FTers,

I have not set foot on a LX flight for over 2 years now. I had catastrophic service onboard, so I just gave it up altogether.

From the unbelievaably cheap and old offerings in the harware and catering in F on the A340 - on my last flight in F the food was somehow overly salty that even the FA said he had never seen anything like that, and they had 4 crew members try the food before coming to the realization that I was not being picky - it was indeed unedible.

And then there's the C seat and service. While for C the service is OK, the seats are falling behind. Yes, I know SN, DL, AC, AA all use them. But LX has always been the "premium airline" of Europe and the LH group, given its historic ties with Swissair and the fact that they operate a hub out of one of the wealthiest cities in the world.

I gave up completely on LX.

I mean, when IBERIA and AZ have better C seating than you, it is time to rethink your strategy...

They really need to up their game soon with the 77W or they will just become a second tier European airline. Even LH has made major changes and has a fantastic F product (at least).
What's wrong with the DL Business Elite seats? All DL international wide body aircraft have genuine flat beds with 100% direct aisle access.
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Old Nov 23, 2014, 7:31 am
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LX is still by far the best part of Lufthansa group for both the inflight product and the airport service in ZRH and JFK. Only the ground service in DUS has become a shame.
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Old Nov 23, 2014, 7:52 am
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Originally Posted by GRUflyer
Quote:
AF?
The SQ super wide seats?
AF is on my no-fly list!

Yes, I did! Too wide for my taste. No good sitting and sleeping position; I did not sleep well at all in it.


I have not set foot on a LX flight for over 2 years now.
And how do you dare to judge on LX now if you did not set a foot apparently on a LX aircraft for 2 years?

edit: Your last LX flight - if it was really the last one - is only 1 year and 5 month ago:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/swiss...-response.html

Last edited by PetzLUX; Nov 23, 2014 at 11:39 am
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Old Nov 23, 2014, 11:02 am
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Truly prefer LX

First the C comparison. Within the last year I have flown long haul C on CX (both the coffin seats and new C), JAL (the new Sky Suite SS7), SQ (the wide C), LX. And for years all the versions except the newest one on AF.

Taking account of all factors: service, food, wine, IFE and seat, I prefer LX. Here is why. First the most important factor, the seat (after all sleeping and comfort is most important on a long haul). I like the personal space on LX on all C seats except the paired A/C seats in the odd numbered rows. Of course the seat is fully flat and offers an excellent sleeping space. The credenza is fantastic. I can set up my ipad and watch it if I wish (could not do that at all on JAL, AF, or CX.

JAL does offer a good sleeping space, but it is a struggle to convince the flight crews to lower the cabin temperature below tropical settings. 26 degrees on one flight! UGH. But the JAL seat has a small eating tray and no room on either side for an iPad.

I find the CX seats to be too confining and hard to exit or enter.

AF is simply lame. Awful. Angled flat with someone right next to you.

Food: Again nod to LX. CX food has gone way downhill. Pathetic actually. JAL serves awful wines (but very good champagne....go figure). SQ food slightly better than CX, but still behind LX. AF food is very close to LX. LX main courses are better; AF desserts are better. Wines are a tie.

IFE. Here is where LX falls behind. CX, SQ, JAL all have far superior screens. On the other hand JAL has the worst choice of films I have ever experienced. UGH. Too bad because the screen is great. CX and SQ have both great screens and great choice. AF is about equal to LX.

Service. Frankly I think LX service is better than the famous Asian carriers. The Asian flight attendants are all smiles but not very efficient at what they do. LX is just as welcoming but extremely responsive and efficient. AF is highly variable. You can ring the call button for a decade and no one will come.

So taking the sum of all the parts, I think LX is doing a good job. Replace the IFE screens and it wins on all the parts in addition to the sum.

Your mileage may vary.
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Old Nov 23, 2014, 2:42 pm
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LX F on A340 is still one of my favourites.. Yes, it looks old, and the colors aren't helping But the seat is very comfortable. I am not hesitating to book LX F.

In C ymmv. You need to choose the right seat and this whimsical air cushion thing doesn't work for me. Still better than LH.

If I learned one thing in the last month: Loyalty does not pay off. And also since I fly a lot, I quite frankly get bored a lot by doing it always with the same carrier. And it is not only because the food doesn't change for a month. I get bored by the routine of same lounge, same airport, same aircraft type, same service concept.

So spicing it up by choosing different airlines is great fun.

Though AF still is on my NoFly List.. Sorry.
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Old Nov 23, 2014, 2:58 pm
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Originally Posted by GRUflyer
I mean, when IBERIA and AZ have better C seating than you, it is time to rethink your strategy...
The best C-cl seat on the marked, beside of SQ...

And AZ's catering ist far superior than the LX food too!
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Old Nov 24, 2014, 4:04 am
  #12  
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Originally Posted by mamb0
LX F on A340 is still one of my favourites.. Yes, it looks old, and the colors aren't helping But the seat is very comfortable. I am not hesitating to book LX F.

In C ymmv. You need to choose the right seat and this whimsical air cushion thing doesn't work for me. Still better than LH.

If I learned one thing in the last month: Loyalty does not pay off.
+1 on LX F (the old F that is).

C really depends heavily on the crew- I have had some great crew experiences and some really poor ones- the seat I do like when it is working correctly- the table trays though have a mechanism that is prone to problems.

I do agree mamb0 that the current management of the group don't think loyalty should be necessarily rewarded- and as a result flying on the best mix of price/service/value together of course with schedule is the best course of action. Last week I had a very inexpensive oneway on BA and as a oneWorld Emerald received an operational upgrade- something that would never happen on Lufthansa even when I was a HON circle member in the last years.

Swiss is a very good airline and should be allowed to continue to be run completely separately from Lufthansa. Lufthansa currently delivers what I consider a very poor value in most conditions unless there are some lowball A or P fares around- in other words the product is only a good value at a significant discount price.

I do hope Swiss can continue to serve as a premium airline and find that apart from the outrageous overcrowding of the SEN/C lounges the ZRH transit experience is generally very good.

Back to the question of the OP- Swiss has not lost their premium niche- they do however need to invest to keep it given the fast moving changes in the industry.
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Old Nov 24, 2014, 2:56 pm
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Btw, I just tried SQ's upgraded champagne in C on FRA-SIN yesterday. They now serve Taittinger Prélude iso Bollinger. I liked the Bollinger a lot but the new one tastes even better IMO.
SQ and LX are my preferred choices for Europe-Asia.
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Old Nov 24, 2014, 11:25 pm
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Originally Posted by CheckInPeach

After all I would still consider LX a premium airline even though definitely not on the top of the scale.
When you compare it to CX or SQ or ANA or JAL hard premium products: I doubt!!
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Old Nov 25, 2014, 1:39 am
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I'm an "a$$-end of the plane" flyer and when it comes to Y class product, LX still wins overall on TATL. Far better the LH, UA, DL and AA (shudder....).
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