Points + Cash Ever Available?
Mar 6, 2015, 7:23 am
#16
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2013
Programs: HHonors Diamond AA Platinum
Posts: 301
When they raised the points and cash required a while back they claimed it was increasing availability. I personally haven't found that to be the case. I used to utilize it for at least half my stays after C and p counted for elite stays and nights qualifications. In the last year I would say I have used it only 20 or so percent of the time. Oh well I still like the program but that was a huge perk with the rates before.
Mar 6, 2015, 7:50 am
#17
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
Programs: UA-1k, 1mm, Marriott-LT Platinum, Hertz-Presidents Circle
Posts: 6,355
Really? Work for who? Do you remember the announcement? It was focused on improvement for us, customers.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/starw...05-2013-a.html
What was the trade off and reason (excuse) to increase? Here is the actual announcement by one of the Lurkers:
We wanted you to be among the first to know that starting in March, we’ll be making some changes to our Cash & Points offering. It’s been a member favorite ever since we introduced it to the industry in 2002, and was made even more important with our 2011 announcement of redemption nights counting toward elite and lifetime status.
Knowing this, we’ve worked very closely with our hotels to make some changes that will both improve the availability of Cash & Points and enhance the program overall.
Beginning March 5, Category 1 and 2 hotels worldwide will be included, and you’ll be able to redeem for upgraded room types including suites. In addition, for the first time, we will be updating the Cash & Points pricing on standard rooms to encourage more availability. You can book at the current pricing until March 5th.
Many of you have also asked about our annual Category changes. As with past years any adjustments will take place in early March, and as soon as we have the list we will post it here. Currently we’re estimating mid-February to have this finalized.
To learn more about the upcoming Cash & Points changes, please visit spg.com/C&Pchanges
Best regards,
Christopher Carman
Social Media Specialist
Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide
[email protected]
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/starw...05-2013-a.html
What was the trade off and reason (excuse) to increase? Here is the actual announcement by one of the Lurkers:
We wanted you to be among the first to know that starting in March, we’ll be making some changes to our Cash & Points offering. It’s been a member favorite ever since we introduced it to the industry in 2002, and was made even more important with our 2011 announcement of redemption nights counting toward elite and lifetime status.
Knowing this, we’ve worked very closely with our hotels to make some changes that will both improve the availability of Cash & Points and enhance the program overall.
Beginning March 5, Category 1 and 2 hotels worldwide will be included, and you’ll be able to redeem for upgraded room types including suites. In addition, for the first time, we will be updating the Cash & Points pricing on standard rooms to encourage more availability. You can book at the current pricing until March 5th.
Many of you have also asked about our annual Category changes. As with past years any adjustments will take place in early March, and as soon as we have the list we will post it here. Currently we’re estimating mid-February to have this finalized.
To learn more about the upcoming Cash & Points changes, please visit spg.com/C&Pchanges
Best regards,
Christopher Carman
Social Media Specialist
Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide
[email protected]
Mar 6, 2015, 8:53 am
#18
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2013
Programs: HHonors Diamond AA Platinum
Posts: 301
Oh man if this is improved availability, then I would hate to see what not improved is.
Mar 6, 2015, 12:33 pm
#19
Ambassador: World of Hyatt
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: San Diego,CA
Posts: 10,080
I have to agree with some others here.
Think many of us understand there are times it simply won't be available
However I also believe there is and has to be such a thing as reasonable expectations throughout a calendar year in every city
I've lost interest in Starwood Preferred Guest (and for a variety of other reasons) when I can book both InterContinental hotels/IHG and Hyatt
even in major cities like New York and elsewhere on C&P with reasonable ease
SPG to my memory was first some years ago with this brilliant C&P option yet I tend to see them over the past years as inferior in availability
For that reason I see my SPG points as somewhat less valuable for redemption/c&p rooms and to some degree even on full redemption for standard rooms.
In one random test case on c&p the Sheraton JFK offered no availability for almost a year
I had the Platinum line check as test to back up my own conclusions.
It's been sometime since I checked so this may or may not be the case presently but it was one of a number of properties we studied at the time
Yet Sheraton LGA at the time had a large supply for almost every month
Now I rarely look at all as I am use to booking elsewhere and staying with other brands.
I too noticed marginal to no difference in a number of markets even with the trumped up promise of greater availability with the devaluation/increase
Currently I see my SPG points as worth far less than some other major programs especially as with the generous rebates all or part of this year with 20% back rebates
for many members on all/ redemption from both IHG and Hyatt and with Hyatt even a 20% off on C&P as well (CC holders)
Hilton tends to be the stingiest but even then I am reminded of my recent stay at the Conrad in London for 5 nights on C&P that was simply brilliant^
My take is yes hotels have the right to release as little or as much room inventory as they see fit but at some point these select hotels allowed to do
so may tarnish the reputation of the program and the very business relationship
Especially for those high frequency travelers who are engaged in a variety of popular programs and regularly have repeated better brand experiences elsewhere
This post isn't a complaint as such its simply an observation/overview
Depending on ones staying pattern the observations may not be perceived the same depending on where one chooses to travel based on destination.
At the end of the day what I'm trying to say is its about a fair balance
For whatever reason I am seeing other programs striking a fairer more balanced equation
I would urge the good folks at SPG to make sure their hotels are participating and cooperating to meet reasonable expectations of their membership base.
As well as rise up to the competition who has copied and sometimes exceeded much of what Starwood created across the board and frequently doing it exceedingly better in my own experience.Oddly whenever I am enjoying rich benefits and redemptions in other programs I am still grateful to SPG back in 1999 who made every program work harder at satisfying their customer .For that reason we are reaping their original beneficial efforts that changed the hotel loyalty landscape in everyway
Cheers
Think many of us understand there are times it simply won't be available
However I also believe there is and has to be such a thing as reasonable expectations throughout a calendar year in every city
I've lost interest in Starwood Preferred Guest (and for a variety of other reasons) when I can book both InterContinental hotels/IHG and Hyatt
even in major cities like New York and elsewhere on C&P with reasonable ease
SPG to my memory was first some years ago with this brilliant C&P option yet I tend to see them over the past years as inferior in availability
For that reason I see my SPG points as somewhat less valuable for redemption/c&p rooms and to some degree even on full redemption for standard rooms.
In one random test case on c&p the Sheraton JFK offered no availability for almost a year
I had the Platinum line check as test to back up my own conclusions.
It's been sometime since I checked so this may or may not be the case presently but it was one of a number of properties we studied at the time
Yet Sheraton LGA at the time had a large supply for almost every month
Now I rarely look at all as I am use to booking elsewhere and staying with other brands.
I too noticed marginal to no difference in a number of markets even with the trumped up promise of greater availability with the devaluation/increase
Currently I see my SPG points as worth far less than some other major programs especially as with the generous rebates all or part of this year with 20% back rebates
for many members on all/ redemption from both IHG and Hyatt and with Hyatt even a 20% off on C&P as well (CC holders)
Hilton tends to be the stingiest but even then I am reminded of my recent stay at the Conrad in London for 5 nights on C&P that was simply brilliant^
My take is yes hotels have the right to release as little or as much room inventory as they see fit but at some point these select hotels allowed to do
so may tarnish the reputation of the program and the very business relationship
Especially for those high frequency travelers who are engaged in a variety of popular programs and regularly have repeated better brand experiences elsewhere
This post isn't a complaint as such its simply an observation/overview
Depending on ones staying pattern the observations may not be perceived the same depending on where one chooses to travel based on destination.
At the end of the day what I'm trying to say is its about a fair balance
For whatever reason I am seeing other programs striking a fairer more balanced equation
I would urge the good folks at SPG to make sure their hotels are participating and cooperating to meet reasonable expectations of their membership base.
As well as rise up to the competition who has copied and sometimes exceeded much of what Starwood created across the board and frequently doing it exceedingly better in my own experience.Oddly whenever I am enjoying rich benefits and redemptions in other programs I am still grateful to SPG back in 1999 who made every program work harder at satisfying their customer .For that reason we are reaping their original beneficial efforts that changed the hotel loyalty landscape in everyway
Cheers
Last edited by 777 global mile hound; Mar 6, 2015 at 12:40 pm
Mar 6, 2015, 12:37 pm
#20
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: GVA (Greater Vancouver Area)
Programs: DREAD Gold; UA 1.035MM; Bonvoy Au-197; PCC Elite+; CCC Elite+; MSC C-12; CWC Au-197; WoH Dis
Posts: 52,133
(a) The law of supply and demand rules hotel rates. Cash&Points is just another rate. It will only be offered when it's advantagious to the hotel. Period. If you expect anything more than that, you're deluding yourself. I assume you also expect hotels to offer low rates in high season when they're full, right?
(b) As written the marketing release is 100% accurate. Read it again, objectively. Nowhere is it expressed or implied that C&P availability will improve for every hotel on every date, which it appears you are adding in your own interpretation.
If you have the points, the only time C&P has any value any more is during high season. Otherwise, a normal award is pretty much just as cost-effective even if C&P is offered.
Last edited by mahasamatman; Mar 6, 2015 at 12:44 pm
Mar 7, 2015, 4:53 pm
#21
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2013
Programs: HHonors Diamond AA Platinum
Posts: 301
And do you (a) understand how business works and (b) know how to read a marketing release without imposing your own feelings into it?
(a) The law of supply and demand rules hotel rates. Cash&Points is just another rate. It will only be offered when it's advantagious to the hotel. Period. If you expect anything more than that, you're deluding yourself. I assume you also expect hotels to offer low rates in high season when they're full, right?
(b) As written the marketing release is 100% accurate. Read it again, objectively. Nowhere is it expressed or implied that C&P availability will improve for every hotel on every date, which it appears you are adding in your own interpretation.
If you have the points, the only time C&P has any value any more is during high season. Otherwise, a normal award is pretty much just as cost-effective even if C&P is offered.
(a) The law of supply and demand rules hotel rates. Cash&Points is just another rate. It will only be offered when it's advantagious to the hotel. Period. If you expect anything more than that, you're deluding yourself. I assume you also expect hotels to offer low rates in high season when they're full, right?
(b) As written the marketing release is 100% accurate. Read it again, objectively. Nowhere is it expressed or implied that C&P availability will improve for every hotel on every date, which it appears you are adding in your own interpretation.
If you have the points, the only time C&P has any value any more is during high season. Otherwise, a normal award is pretty much just as cost-effective even if C&P is offered.
I understand the defense of something you clearly care about, but this is not accurate when you include every other loyalty brand.
I really enjoy SPG, but their C&P options are flat out awful compared to other programs.
Mar 7, 2015, 5:37 pm
#22
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: STL
Programs: Bonvoy Titanium, UA Silver, AA Gold
Posts: 144
Looking right now for July / August in Europe, I see every hotel in Paris and Munich with C&P availability, and at least 1+ hotel with C&P availability in the couple other cities i looked at (Amsterdam, Berlin, and Barcelona).
While C&P isn't ubiquitous, the bigger issue seems to be that people are making grand statements about C&P's horrors based upon a small selection of dates at a small selection of hotels. Look far enough out and there's a boatload of C&P availability.
Last edited by reuthermonkey; Mar 7, 2015 at 5:48 pm
Mar 8, 2015, 9:27 am
#23
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: YQR
Programs: Nexus/GE, UA/MPG, Bonvoy Tit, LTP
Posts: 1,294
We have never had problems with C & P , although we don't use it often. We just finished a 9 night C & P stay at the Moana Surfrider in Waikiki, at peak time when the hotel was sold out for most of our stay.
What I don't like about C & P ( and why I avoid it generally) is the fact that you get no points on the cash part for the stay. When you combine it with no points on the dreaded resort fees you can have a pretty expensive stay, even on C& P, and get little back compared to if it were a cash stay.
BTW Margarita Girl describes an interesting means of creating her own C& P stays at rates that often beat those of SPG, by booking consecutive cash stays and point stays. She describes it in the Westin Moana Surfrider thread. I would link it here if I knew how.
What I don't like about C & P ( and why I avoid it generally) is the fact that you get no points on the cash part for the stay. When you combine it with no points on the dreaded resort fees you can have a pretty expensive stay, even on C& P, and get little back compared to if it were a cash stay.
BTW Margarita Girl describes an interesting means of creating her own C& P stays at rates that often beat those of SPG, by booking consecutive cash stays and point stays. She describes it in the Westin Moana Surfrider thread. I would link it here if I knew how.
Mar 8, 2015, 10:40 am
#24
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2001
Programs: DL 1 million, AA 1 mil, HH lapsed Diamond, Marriott Plat
Posts: 28,190
I'll point out that Lurker has mentioned that non-smoking and bedding preferences are guaranteed on paid reservations but not award reservations - and C&P is treated as an award.
Mar 8, 2015, 1:05 pm
#25
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Michigan
Programs: AA EXP(4mm), DL Gold, UA Gold (1mm), HH Diamond, Bonvoy Amb(l/t Titanium). Former EA/PA elite
Posts: 994
C&P is rarely a good deal anymore. A shame really. I find a reasonably good deal with C&P only about once a year now.
Unlike the OP, I do find many hotels offering C&P still....but not at a very attractive rate.
Mar 8, 2015, 7:29 pm
#26
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2013
Programs: HHonors Diamond AA Platinum
Posts: 301
This statement is laughable. What's grand for others might not be grand for you, but it's posts like this that make so many stop posting their thoughts and opinions as they are belittled far too often.
Sorry, there are simply NOT boatload of C&P availability in my searches. Glad there are for you in Europe, but my travels are not taking me there. Where my travels take me, the C&Ps throughout this year are absent. I guess I should not post those thoughts as its simply a small sample (albeit my full sample and how it impacts my travel).
Mar 8, 2015, 7:38 pm
#27
Ambassador: World of Hyatt
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: San Diego,CA
Posts: 10,080
This statement is laughable. What's grand for others might not be grand for you, but it's posts like this that make so many stop posting their thoughts and opinions as they are belittled far too often.
Sorry, there are simply NOT boatload of C&P availability in my searches. Glad there are for you in Europe, but my travels are not taking me there. Where my travels take me, the C&Ps throughout this year are absent. I guess I should not post those thoughts as its simply a small sample (albeit my full sample and how it impacts my travel).
Sorry, there are simply NOT boatload of C&P availability in my searches. Glad there are for you in Europe, but my travels are not taking me there. Where my travels take me, the C&Ps throughout this year are absent. I guess I should not post those thoughts as its simply a small sample (albeit my full sample and how it impacts my travel).
Mar 8, 2015, 7:53 pm
#28
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PSM
Posts: 69,232
I've been collecting data on hotel award inventory based on "real world" searches in Hotel Hustle for a few months now. In that period I've recorded:
47,992 results where a room was available for cash covering 1030 different properties.
42,896 had award rooms for points on those same nights covering 1003 properties.
14,465 had C&P awards available covering 696 properties.
C&P is neither always nor never available. It is part of why I built a tool to help find it and alert you should it become available.
If there is a specific property you're curious about let me know and I'll see if I have data on it.
n.b. The link above is to my blog or to one which I am a regular contributor. FT rules require that I disclose that in the post.
47,992 results where a room was available for cash covering 1030 different properties.
42,896 had award rooms for points on those same nights covering 1003 properties.
14,465 had C&P awards available covering 696 properties.
C&P is neither always nor never available. It is part of why I built a tool to help find it and alert you should it become available.
If there is a specific property you're curious about let me know and I'll see if I have data on it.
n.b. The link above is to my blog or to one which I am a regular contributor. FT rules require that I disclose that in the post.
Mar 9, 2015, 3:02 am
#29
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,978
Doesn't matter if you search it or not. I think the hotels have out-smart it to make C+P a sucker rate when offered. I don't know if SPG management simply got outsmarted, or they were in on the scam with the hotel properties. But the new rate definitely isn't an enhancement nor a benefit to us loyal SPG travelers. 90% of the time the hotels I wanted to stay at (my primary cities are: Shanghai, Ningbo, Wenzhou, Chengdu, Taipei, Hong Kong) the hotel simply don't have C&P, ever. From time to time when they do have it the difference between lowest rate and C&P rate is so small that any sane person with a brain will be crazy to go with the C&P rate.
I'm still sticking with SPG because the ONLY reason is I can transfer points at 25% bonus to my select airline FFP. Sadly this is the ONLY reason I'm still primarily staying at SPG properties.
I'm still sticking with SPG because the ONLY reason is I can transfer points at 25% bonus to my select airline FFP. Sadly this is the ONLY reason I'm still primarily staying at SPG properties.
Mar 9, 2015, 3:26 am
#30
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
Programs: UA-1k, 1mm, Marriott-LT Platinum, Hertz-Presidents Circle
Posts: 6,355
And do you (a) understand how business works and (b) know how to read a marketing release without imposing your own feelings into it?
(a) The law of supply and demand rules hotel rates. Cash&Points is just another rate. It will only be offered when it's advantagious to the hotel. Period. If you expect anything more than that, you're deluding yourself. I assume you also expect hotels to offer low rates in high season when they're full, right?
(b) As written the marketing release is 100% accurate. Read it again, objectively. Nowhere is it expressed or implied that C&P availability will improve for every hotel on every date, which it appears you are adding in your own interpretation.
If you have the points, the only time C&P has any value any more is during high season. Otherwise, a normal award is pretty much just as cost-effective even if C&P is offered.
(a) The law of supply and demand rules hotel rates. Cash&Points is just another rate. It will only be offered when it's advantagious to the hotel. Period. If you expect anything more than that, you're deluding yourself. I assume you also expect hotels to offer low rates in high season when they're full, right?
(b) As written the marketing release is 100% accurate. Read it again, objectively. Nowhere is it expressed or implied that C&P availability will improve for every hotel on every date, which it appears you are adding in your own interpretation.
If you have the points, the only time C&P has any value any more is during high season. Otherwise, a normal award is pretty much just as cost-effective even if C&P is offered.
Oh wait this is an internet forum made up of people posting their opinions from all over the world. However, I'll make sure to run it by you next time before I post exact quotes from a press release whose entire purpose was for SPG to say it was an improvement for this customers. I'll reserve judgement until you rule what the world should believe.
If I don't agree, I won't dare post my opinion and leave it to you to be the gospel word of truth. Thanks again for your continual oversight of this forum.
