We have it great on Southwest Airlines
May 7, 2008, 8:39 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: LAS-DEN
Programs: WN CP & B-list. Disillusioned fmr UA-1P/2P,F9-Ascent; Fmr AA-Plat,CO-Gold,NW-Silver,TWA-Elite
Posts: 1,630
We have it great on Southwest Airlines
Being a former 2P and 1P at United Airlines, I still read and post over on that FT Board. However, the more I read and post there, the more I realize how much better Southwest is than United.
I used to think it was mostly about the price, and, no doubt, Southwest blows United away. I priced one flight June 15-20, LAS-DEN-LAS on Southwest at $198. For comparable flight times, United was $272. But, honestly, that is only the beginning of how Southwest is better. I thought it would be fun to list all the ways that Southwest is better. And, if there is a way that some legacy has some minor advantage, its ok to list that too. For example:
Change fees. None at Southwest. Just raised to $150 at United. Lack of change fees means you can book early and cancel if you need to -- a hidden cost savings at Southwest. United, you play the "wait-and-see" game until you are pretty sure you really need to go from A-to-B. By then, you are paying closer to the middle or upper end of the equivilent of the "wanna-get-away" fare.
Ticketless Travel Funds: Southwest invented it. United rarely needs it, the change fees cause almost no remaining value. You can't look it up on the Internet, but keep your ticket number (the long one) and you can access it on the phone with an agent.
Phone booking: Southwest: Free. United $15. This helped me out a lot one time when I couldn't get to a computer and I wanted to make a change.
Baggage: Southwest, two bags free, third bag $25. United, first bag free, second bag $25, third bag $100 (different rates apply if you have status, second bag is free, not sure on the third bag).
Call Centers: Southwest -- based in the USA. United -- based in India. Constant complaints on the United FT Board about the India call center that the customer service over there can't understand all of the complex rules. United's customers understand the rules better than the call center employees. If United's rules weren't so complex, maybe the call center employees could understand them?
Web site. Southwest's works great. Posters on United's FT Board call United's web site ".bomb" instead of ".com". I've had all kinds of weird things happen when I'm on there. On United's FT Board, they have a "sticky" listing all the problems.
One-way bookings. Southwest: No extra charge. No change fee means no penalty for using one-ways. Makes life simple. Helps to make the web site easier to use too. United: Book a one way and change your mind? If the fare was less than $150, just throw the ticket (and your money) away. Book a round trip and double your chances that you have to change one flight or the other.
In-flight snacks. On a 629-mile flight from DEN to LAS, Southwest gives both a bag of peanuts and a larger bag of crackers, such as Cheez-its. United gives one bag of pretzels or a pretzel mix.
In-flight snacks, part 2. On a longer flight, DEN-MCO, Southwest in April 2007 gave a snack box. I haven't made that trip since then. United: DEN-PHL in May 2007 was pretzels only.
Drinks. Southwest: On a 629-mile flight, one drink plus a pass-through by the flight attendents asking for refills. Alteratively, ask for a full can of soda and you get it without the dirty look from the flight attendents. United: Ask for a full can of soda and the FA gives you the feeling that you alone are causing United to lose money.
Drinks, part 2. Southwest: More alcoholic drink coupons than I can use. United: Coupons? What are those?
In-flight entertainment: Southwest: Bring your own iPod or DVD player. Coming soon, in-flight wireless Internet. United: In-flight video, Jay Leno, sometimes a decent comedy re-run. Several channels of audio, probably only one or two that appeal to you. The Channel 9 (Air Traffic Control Audio) thing is fun, I do miss that. If Southwest could figure out how to link that in to in-flight wireless, that would be really cool! I always like to hear "United flight xxx, you are number 2 behind a Southwest 737!" (But then, I always know that United is behind Southwest!
)
Live in-flight entertainment: Southwest: You might get a flight attendent that sings, tells jokes, makes the safety announcement more interesting. My favorite: At the beginning of the announcement a male flight attendant said, "My ex-wife and her lawyer are standing in the aisles to give you this important safety briefing..." United: Humor? We are a serious airline. Humor is not allowed in our union contract.
Seating: Southwest: One seat (12F) with the most legroom of any coach seat on any US (maybe worldwide) carrier. The legroom may even exceed International Business class on legacy carriers (if you have never experienced this, please do sometime!) One more seat (11E) with amazing shoulder room as there is no 11F. Three more seats (11A-B-C) with more legroom than United's Economy Plus. Open seating gives everyone a chance at the comfortable open middle seat on less than full flights (whereas, open middles are reserved for the 100,000 mile flyers on United, then to the 50k flyers and then to the 25k flyers). United: Economy plus on 40% of the cabin on TED flights. Upgrades to first class on non-TED flights will cost you serious money. Occasional free upgrades if you are Premier or better.
Frequent Flyer Program: Southwest: Fly four round trips and rent from Hertz each time with Quad credit, get a free domestic ticket. My experience, they are pretty easy to use. When the Quad credit runs out, triple credit will be good with five round trips. For me, four round trips is about 5,000 BIS (butt-in-seat) miles (an important measurement over at United). United: Depending on your status and use of other mileage sources, I don't see how to get it below 10,000 BIS miles, generally more like 15,000, to earn 25,000 miles for a free domestic ticket. Granted, if you save more miles, you might get to go to far away lands, such as Europe or Australia. Check United's web site and try to find such a trip for at their SAVER rates (90k miles to Europe in Business, 110K to Australia). If you find one to Australia, let me know, I haven't found it. Otherwise, its 180k to Europe and 220k to Australia.
Non-stop service: Southwest: Many point-to-point non-stops. United: I hope one end or the other of your A-to-B is one of their hubs. Otherwise, you are going to be visiting one of their hubs. Add 2 hours to your travel time and hope for no weather delays at the hub that day.
Frequent Flyer Status: Southwest: A-list for 32 flights in a 12 month period. Result: Great seat selection. Companion pass for 100 flight credits. United: 25k miles Premier, 50k miles Premier Exec, 100k miles Premier Exec 1K. Varying levels of improved seating, Economy Plus, free or reduced cost upgrades to first, if the flight isn't a TED flight. Bonus miles. If Southwest doesn't go from your A-to-B but United does, study this frequent flyer system and work it to your advantage.
Frequent Flyer Non-Status: Southwest: Still a great A boarding pass if you are organized and do check-in 24 hours before the flight. United: Economy Plus will cost you. Otherwise, its the back of the plane for you! I had the situation where United promised me a seat but wouldn't tell me which one until I got to the airport. I was pretty concerned it was going to be a middle seat. Turned out it wasn't. But, I'd rather have the mystery of which window seat I'm going to get with my A boarding pass than the mystery of "I'm I going to be in the middle seat for over 3 hours?"
Long-term viability: Southwest: Profitable every quarter for the last 34 years. United: Lost $500 million last quarter.
What did I miss, both where Southwest is better than the legacy carriers and where the legacy carriers still have an edge?
I used to think it was mostly about the price, and, no doubt, Southwest blows United away. I priced one flight June 15-20, LAS-DEN-LAS on Southwest at $198. For comparable flight times, United was $272. But, honestly, that is only the beginning of how Southwest is better. I thought it would be fun to list all the ways that Southwest is better. And, if there is a way that some legacy has some minor advantage, its ok to list that too. For example:
Change fees. None at Southwest. Just raised to $150 at United. Lack of change fees means you can book early and cancel if you need to -- a hidden cost savings at Southwest. United, you play the "wait-and-see" game until you are pretty sure you really need to go from A-to-B. By then, you are paying closer to the middle or upper end of the equivilent of the "wanna-get-away" fare.
Ticketless Travel Funds: Southwest invented it. United rarely needs it, the change fees cause almost no remaining value. You can't look it up on the Internet, but keep your ticket number (the long one) and you can access it on the phone with an agent.
Phone booking: Southwest: Free. United $15. This helped me out a lot one time when I couldn't get to a computer and I wanted to make a change.
Baggage: Southwest, two bags free, third bag $25. United, first bag free, second bag $25, third bag $100 (different rates apply if you have status, second bag is free, not sure on the third bag).
Call Centers: Southwest -- based in the USA. United -- based in India. Constant complaints on the United FT Board about the India call center that the customer service over there can't understand all of the complex rules. United's customers understand the rules better than the call center employees. If United's rules weren't so complex, maybe the call center employees could understand them?
Web site. Southwest's works great. Posters on United's FT Board call United's web site ".bomb" instead of ".com". I've had all kinds of weird things happen when I'm on there. On United's FT Board, they have a "sticky" listing all the problems.
One-way bookings. Southwest: No extra charge. No change fee means no penalty for using one-ways. Makes life simple. Helps to make the web site easier to use too. United: Book a one way and change your mind? If the fare was less than $150, just throw the ticket (and your money) away. Book a round trip and double your chances that you have to change one flight or the other.
In-flight snacks. On a 629-mile flight from DEN to LAS, Southwest gives both a bag of peanuts and a larger bag of crackers, such as Cheez-its. United gives one bag of pretzels or a pretzel mix.
In-flight snacks, part 2. On a longer flight, DEN-MCO, Southwest in April 2007 gave a snack box. I haven't made that trip since then. United: DEN-PHL in May 2007 was pretzels only.
Drinks. Southwest: On a 629-mile flight, one drink plus a pass-through by the flight attendents asking for refills. Alteratively, ask for a full can of soda and you get it without the dirty look from the flight attendents. United: Ask for a full can of soda and the FA gives you the feeling that you alone are causing United to lose money.
Drinks, part 2. Southwest: More alcoholic drink coupons than I can use. United: Coupons? What are those?
In-flight entertainment: Southwest: Bring your own iPod or DVD player. Coming soon, in-flight wireless Internet. United: In-flight video, Jay Leno, sometimes a decent comedy re-run. Several channels of audio, probably only one or two that appeal to you. The Channel 9 (Air Traffic Control Audio) thing is fun, I do miss that. If Southwest could figure out how to link that in to in-flight wireless, that would be really cool! I always like to hear "United flight xxx, you are number 2 behind a Southwest 737!" (But then, I always know that United is behind Southwest!
)Live in-flight entertainment: Southwest: You might get a flight attendent that sings, tells jokes, makes the safety announcement more interesting. My favorite: At the beginning of the announcement a male flight attendant said, "My ex-wife and her lawyer are standing in the aisles to give you this important safety briefing..." United: Humor? We are a serious airline. Humor is not allowed in our union contract.
Seating: Southwest: One seat (12F) with the most legroom of any coach seat on any US (maybe worldwide) carrier. The legroom may even exceed International Business class on legacy carriers (if you have never experienced this, please do sometime!) One more seat (11E) with amazing shoulder room as there is no 11F. Three more seats (11A-B-C) with more legroom than United's Economy Plus. Open seating gives everyone a chance at the comfortable open middle seat on less than full flights (whereas, open middles are reserved for the 100,000 mile flyers on United, then to the 50k flyers and then to the 25k flyers). United: Economy plus on 40% of the cabin on TED flights. Upgrades to first class on non-TED flights will cost you serious money. Occasional free upgrades if you are Premier or better.
Frequent Flyer Program: Southwest: Fly four round trips and rent from Hertz each time with Quad credit, get a free domestic ticket. My experience, they are pretty easy to use. When the Quad credit runs out, triple credit will be good with five round trips. For me, four round trips is about 5,000 BIS (butt-in-seat) miles (an important measurement over at United). United: Depending on your status and use of other mileage sources, I don't see how to get it below 10,000 BIS miles, generally more like 15,000, to earn 25,000 miles for a free domestic ticket. Granted, if you save more miles, you might get to go to far away lands, such as Europe or Australia. Check United's web site and try to find such a trip for at their SAVER rates (90k miles to Europe in Business, 110K to Australia). If you find one to Australia, let me know, I haven't found it. Otherwise, its 180k to Europe and 220k to Australia.
Non-stop service: Southwest: Many point-to-point non-stops. United: I hope one end or the other of your A-to-B is one of their hubs. Otherwise, you are going to be visiting one of their hubs. Add 2 hours to your travel time and hope for no weather delays at the hub that day.
Frequent Flyer Status: Southwest: A-list for 32 flights in a 12 month period. Result: Great seat selection. Companion pass for 100 flight credits. United: 25k miles Premier, 50k miles Premier Exec, 100k miles Premier Exec 1K. Varying levels of improved seating, Economy Plus, free or reduced cost upgrades to first, if the flight isn't a TED flight. Bonus miles. If Southwest doesn't go from your A-to-B but United does, study this frequent flyer system and work it to your advantage.
Frequent Flyer Non-Status: Southwest: Still a great A boarding pass if you are organized and do check-in 24 hours before the flight. United: Economy Plus will cost you. Otherwise, its the back of the plane for you! I had the situation where United promised me a seat but wouldn't tell me which one until I got to the airport. I was pretty concerned it was going to be a middle seat. Turned out it wasn't. But, I'd rather have the mystery of which window seat I'm going to get with my A boarding pass than the mystery of "I'm I going to be in the middle seat for over 3 hours?"
Long-term viability: Southwest: Profitable every quarter for the last 34 years. United: Lost $500 million last quarter.
What did I miss, both where Southwest is better than the legacy carriers and where the legacy carriers still have an edge?
May 7, 2008, 8:58 pm
#2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: DFW
Programs: AA EXP (2MM), HHonors Diamond
Posts: 443
Ok now THAT was a great post!!!!! Did the Southwest PR department pay you to post that? J/K! I say just kidding because even if that was the case, everything you said was 100% true!
I think the ONE THING that gets people all in a tizzy about flying WN is the open seating thing. What people fail to realize is yes, you won't get an assigned seat and yes you need to make sure to check-in early to get a good boarding group, but EVERYTHING else tips in the favor of Southwest. Sure folks fly the legacy carriers because they have elite status and can upgrade to F class, but hands down I can say that on MANY flights I've taken in F class on a legacy carrier, the service by the F/A's on Southwest has been better. The meal is never worth talking about in F on a legacy, but at least in about 98% of the cases, you don't get the F/A's on Southwest working the daily crossword and disappearing the entire flight after the initial drink service is complete.
I would agree, hands down, Southwest provides the best service of any airline out there. Are they perfect? Certainly not, but then again look at what you have to compare them to. NOT MUCH!
I think the ONE THING that gets people all in a tizzy about flying WN is the open seating thing. What people fail to realize is yes, you won't get an assigned seat and yes you need to make sure to check-in early to get a good boarding group, but EVERYTHING else tips in the favor of Southwest. Sure folks fly the legacy carriers because they have elite status and can upgrade to F class, but hands down I can say that on MANY flights I've taken in F class on a legacy carrier, the service by the F/A's on Southwest has been better. The meal is never worth talking about in F on a legacy, but at least in about 98% of the cases, you don't get the F/A's on Southwest working the daily crossword and disappearing the entire flight after the initial drink service is complete.
I would agree, hands down, Southwest provides the best service of any airline out there. Are they perfect? Certainly not, but then again look at what you have to compare them to. NOT MUCH!
May 7, 2008, 9:00 pm
#3
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: LAS
Programs: SWA
Posts: 1,320
Hear, hear.
Only one point of clarification...
Log in, Go to Travel Tools, Select View Ticketless Travel Funds Balance.
There you go.
Only one point of clarification...
There you go.
May 7, 2008, 9:30 pm
#5
Original Member and FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Kansas City, MO, USA
Programs: DL PM/MM, AA ExPlat, Hyatt Glob, HH Dia, National ECE, Hertz PC
Posts: 16,579
You also forgot the gate areas, WN's new gate areas are far superior to those of legacy carriers in my opinion.
May 7, 2008, 9:44 pm
#6
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 315
It's so exciting hearing about the things that you guys LIKE! I'm a proud Flight Attendant for Southwest Airlines and I look forward to providing you all with our legendary service if you're ever on my flight.
I'm glad someone brought up service; flying other carriers fairly often we do WAY more inflight service, passing through the cabin, than I see on most carriers.
I'm glad someone brought up service; flying other carriers fairly often we do WAY more inflight service, passing through the cabin, than I see on most carriers.
Last edited by CABNcrew; May 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm
May 7, 2008, 10:04 pm
#8
Original Member and FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Kansas City, MO, USA
Programs: DL PM/MM, AA ExPlat, Hyatt Glob, HH Dia, National ECE, Hertz PC
Posts: 16,579
May 7, 2008, 10:59 pm
#10
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,617
FCfree, that was an impressive compilation. You hit every Southwest strength except one: they answer their phones promptly, with no elaborate recorded menu of options to fight through. (Nitpick: the CP is earned at 100 credits from any and all sources.)
UA and M+ are stronger than you portray them, especially for certain categories: frequent long-haul customers, anybody that reach 1K, people who need the extra few inches of legroom that you get in Economy Plus, and people who have minimal use for domestic award tickets. In fact, if it were not for award availability problems, UA would have the strongest package of any legacy carrier.
Southwest remains underappreciated by people who haven't tried it enough to truly discover its advantages.
UA and M+ are stronger than you portray them, especially for certain categories: frequent long-haul customers, anybody that reach 1K, people who need the extra few inches of legroom that you get in Economy Plus, and people who have minimal use for domestic award tickets. In fact, if it were not for award availability problems, UA would have the strongest package of any legacy carrier.
Southwest remains underappreciated by people who haven't tried it enough to truly discover its advantages.
May 7, 2008, 11:30 pm
#11
Join Date: Nov 2006
Programs: WN | UA
Posts: 282
I'm a CP on Southwest and 1P on United.
Other members on legacy threads constantly poke fun at WN but they're just brainwashed with change fees and get caught up in the first class/upgrade game. My status on legacies were earned just on international travel and I fly WN whenever I can.
Rapid Rewards is also one of the best FF programs in the business.
Other members on legacy threads constantly poke fun at WN but they're just brainwashed with change fees and get caught up in the first class/upgrade game. My status on legacies were earned just on international travel and I fly WN whenever I can.
Rapid Rewards is also one of the best FF programs in the business.
May 8, 2008, 12:10 am
#13
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,617
I did. That's the flip side of no change fees. Although I make liberal use of the flat tire rule (free standby for 2 hours AFTER the flight you booked) to cut it very close when going to the airport.
May 8, 2008, 12:11 am
#14
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BNA
Programs: HH Gold. (Former) UA PP, DL PM, PC Plat
Posts: 8,178
The big difference is that SWA F/A's are always happy to get refills, pillows/blankets, or whatever we might ask for--and always nice and friendly. On other airlines that is frequently not the case. The F/A's on other airlines are often very professional in doing their jobs but there not nearly as friendly or fun to spend the flight with.
