No movie/IFE, opportunity for upgrade, meals opportunity (even for purchase).
Also lack of true non-stop flights...most (not all of course) trans-con routings have 2-3 stops in the middle of them.
Finally, with RR segment-based model, it de-values my reward benefits vs. legacies. For example, BWI-LAS flight = 2 RR credits, but it's 4200 FF miles round trip. So, 6 flights to gain a free domestic ticket on legacy vs. 8 trips on WN to gain free ticket.
Again, for what I consider to be their bread & butter, WN is fine. I just don't see them being a "one size fits all" airline for most people, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CABNcrew
...because WN doesn't serve meals or have IFE maybe?
Hilarious. However you are certainly entitled to place a high value on the crappy buy-on-board snack options and edited B-run movies. And perhaps upgrades though you won't be getting one on UA (and I suspect others) without super high elite status...or buying e-upgrades. And if you have such status, then you certainly have far less incentive to fly WN.
The only reason I don't fly WN transcon is that it usually takes longer (due to the lack of nonstops), WN doesn't service the most convenient airports (DCA, BOS, LGA/JFK/EWR) and there is rarely any price savings for the inconvenience of the first two items. But lack of IFE and "food"? That's a joke.
Depending on route, carrier, and class, there are excellent...well, at least IFE options. JetBlue and Virgin America are good for those 5-6 hour transcons, or even for those short intra-California flights during Monday Night Football (if that's your thing).
...and AA has excellent IFE on its SFO/LAX-JFK transcons in business or first--individual video players with a decent selection of films most months and noise-cxling headphones--and the multi-channel video on the domestic 777 flights is nice, plus the chance to sit in the intl. business seats as an elite economy passenger. I actually like AA's breakfast options up front, but YMMV.
I bring my own MP3 player, but generally don't carry a computer (my travel usually requires me to take enough other stuff), relying instead on paperbacks, which are easy enough to find almost everywhere. For a few hours, not a big deal, but on those long transcons, a little IFE can go a long way.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boraxo
Hilarious. However you are certainly entitled to place a high value on the crappy buy-on-board snack options and edited B-run movies. And perhaps upgrades though you won't be getting one on UA (and I suspect others) without super high elite status...or buying e-upgrades. And if you have such status, then you certainly have far less incentive to fly WN.
The only reason I don't fly WN transcon is that it usually takes longer (due to the lack of nonstops), WN doesn't service the most convenient airports (DCA, BOS, LGA/JFK/EWR) and there is rarely any price savings for the inconvenience of the first two items. But lack of IFE and "food"? That's a joke.
Hilarious? What's hilarious about wanting a sandwich on a 4 hour flight? Maybe I don't want to pick one up at the airport and have it get crushed in my bag for 2 hours until I feel like eating it. As far as edited B-run movies....my laptop battery only lasts about 2 hours and after that I'll take B-run movies over - nothing.
What's hilarious is that you in essence agreed with me on my other points regarding lack of true non-stops.
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The whole thing about IFE is going to be so yesterday when Southwest rolls out WiFi, and leaves everybody else in the dust (except possibly Virgin, who hints that it may be around the corner for them, too).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firewind
The whole thing about IFE is going to be so yesterday when Southwest rolls out WiFi, and leaves everybody else in the dust (except possibly Virgin, who hints that it may be around the corner for them, too).
In-flight Wi-Fi will be expensive or disappointing or both. The technical and cost challenges are extreme.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cargojon
...I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever do a trans-con on WN. Plain and simple.
This is where I use my RRs. Most bang for the least bucks, plus the lack of close-in and change fees.
And for my purposes, United's new $100 close-in fee for booking an award less than 21 days out effectively has changed the freebie into a discounted ticket. Those tickets I reaped during Fall Madness '07 on Southwest just became much more precious.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firewind
This is the first time that I've seen this point raised. Extreme is an extreme word. Would you elaborate?
You need line of sight from the airplane to some communication facility. Either a tower on the ground or a satellite. For towers, you need a lot of them to cover the country. That costs money. For a satellite, the cost per bit is high and the achievable data rates are limited. It's not economically viable for watching movies, for example. Look at the costs and limitations of satellite Internet access you can buy today and you'll see.
Furthermore, even if those costs and limitations were acceptable the service could fall victim to its own success: The lead time for expanding capacity is measured in years.
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Oooohhh... OK. I'll take that one off the Southwest side of my list, and stop citing it on other boards. I've really been stoked about it since I first saw CABNcrew's post about it.
You need line of sight from the airplane to some communication facility. Either a tower on the ground or a satellite. For towers, you need a lot of them to cover the country. That costs money. For a satellite, the cost per bit is high and the achievable data rates are limited. It's not economically viable for watching movies, for example. Look at the costs and limitations of satellite Internet access you can buy today and you'll see.
Furthermore, even if those costs and limitations were acceptable the service could fall victim to its own success: The lead time for expanding capacity is measured in years.
That wasn't my understanding of how the Boeing Connection system worked. There was Wi-Fi inside the airplane, that went to a central point. From that point, there is a connection of some sort to a system like the air-phones, which obviously have coverage across the US and around the world. Is the air-phone satellite based or ground based? I'm thinking satellite since it works out over the ocean.
Certainly there are some examples above where the legacies might be a better choice than Southwest. US Air's $50 per 500 mile upgrade program, for example, is a relatively low cost way to experience first class. I used that once on an approx. 1250 mile flight before Southwest happened to serve that city pair non-stop. That particular time, time was of the essence and I couldn't afford the time of going through MDW. Flight times on US Air just made more sense. You don't have to have any status to use the $50 per 500 mile deal. Definately something to keep in mind. That particular time, there was a 3 hour rain stop for all airlines, so getting into that first class seat after a long business day was very nice, even if the food was not to my taste on US Air.
If you can stand the change fee hassle and potentially higher fares, CO is nice for their unlimited first class upgrades, although what I hear is that the SILVERS are not getting the same upgrade rate as they used to. I don't know if that is true or not. It would be a pain to fly 25,000 miles or 30 segments only to discover that the actual rate of upgrade is poor. NW used to be very good to both their own SILVERS and CO. I can't speak to how it is today, simply because I'm not going between the city pairs that CO and NW serve. Also, I don't know how the DL merger with NW is going to effect that. I do know, through a friend, that a route that he frequently used just got downgraded to a CRJ and with the first class option went away too. The friend is an NW Gold and reports that as GOLD he gets upgraded virtually every time he or his wife flies, if there is a first class cabin on the plane. His home city is not a Southwest city, so NW makes more sense for him. Although, if NW keeps doing the cutbacks, he might just start driving to a Southwest city if he is always in coach (and CRJ sub-coach).
Certainly if your destination city is not a Southwest city, you've got to compare the possible drive against landing right where you want to be.
NSX's point about first class full, coach 70% empty is well taken. If you paid with cash, points or certs for that upgrade, I'd think you'd want a refund, but you probably wouldn't get it.
If you are going transcon on either WN or a legacy and you know you are not going to pay to get upgraded, or upgrading is not possible, then its a coach to coach comparison. Jet Blue or Frontier's Direct TV is a possible reason for them. The other legacy IFE -- I don't know. Compare price, open middle chances, open row chances (especially now with the cutbacks at the legacies), various features such as IFE and the change fees. While getting there fast (non-stop) is nice, a one-stop to stretch, use a real bathroom and get some decent food also might not be the worst thing.
We've got it great at Southwest... Didn't say we had it perfect!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCfree
That wasn't my understanding of how the Boeing Connection system worked. There was Wi-Fi inside the airplane, that went to a central point. From that point, there is a connection of some sort to a system like the air-phones, which obviously have coverage across the US and around the world. Is the air-phone satellite based or ground based? I'm thinking satellite since it works out over the ocean.
It used satellites. Airphones use simple (and limited data rate) radio links to the ground AFAIK.
It used satellites. Airphones use simple (and limited data rate) radio links to the ground AFAIK.
So, in-flight wireless Internet would be OK for Instant Messages (I think I used that once, called JetConnect?), and maybe some simple web surfing? Might be a step above dial-up, but certainly not like being connected to your cable modem?
The most important question -- is it fast enough to make a post on Flyer Talk?
Probably OK for normal web surfing. For Internet access to airplanes, speed costs money. How much would you like to spend?
If they could make it work for $5 to $10 per segment (retail price), I think I would definately be interested. That would put it right in line with Direct TV at Frontier and Jet Blue.
