You asked why the difference in route network is an issue for people. Boghopper said the clincher is that awards cannot get you to Europe, Asia, or now even Hawaii. Your statement about OAK-BUR is not an argument against that fact.
RR is not good for some people and that is one reason why. In the end though everyone has different needs and different favorite programs.
But this is precisely what I said. I do want to gain awards that go to Europe and Asia, and in fact I have gained them on UA. But I also want to go places that I can only get to on WN. (As my other message said, taking UA SFO-BUR is not a realistic option most of the time when you compare how much more it costs than taking WN OAK-BUR.)
The only solution for my needs is to fly BOTH airlines. In California I don't think I'm that unusual. Except for SFO, WN has the NorCal-SoCal market just about wrapped up.
To put it another way: If you think I'm arguing that RR is better than Mileage Plus, you're wrong. I've gotten awards from both programs, the more valuable ones from Mileage Plus. All I'm saying is that for my travel needs neither UA nor WN will do on its own -- I need both to take me everywhere I need to go.
Like I said, "In the end though everyone has different needs and different favorite programs."
I think you've answered your own original question. Since you're accumulating with both UA and WN, it should be obvious to you why some people dislike the WN route network. Also, not everyone is going to work on 2 programs like that -- if interested in upgrades and elite status.
TalkBoard Member/Moderator: Southwest and JetBlue forums
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Peace of mind
Another advantage of buying tickets on Southwest: peace of mind that your carrier will not suddenly stop flying. Marketwatch says:
J.P. Morgan also listed the airlines it thinks are at Chapter 11 risk, from lowest to highest:
Southwest Airlines
Alaska Air Lines
Delta Air Lines
AirTran
Continental
JetBlue
American Airlines
United Airlines
Northwest Airlines
U.S. Airways
The end of TED won't be enough to get me to go back to United, even if they do put First Class seats on ex-TED planes and put them on the DEN-LAS route. Back when they had first class seats, getting an upgrade was a real problem.
If your route is primarily DEN-LAS, you earn 629 miles per segment. You've got to fly 8 round trips (16 x 629 = 10,064) to get a four 500-mile upgrade coupon package. You can then burn that entire package on your next DEN-LAS-DEN run, since it takes two 500-mile coupons to upgrade on the route (629 miles of actual comfort, 371 miles lost due to the fact that they still think in terms of "coupons" even though everything is electronic -- why not give twenty 100-mile coupons and take six coupons per DEN-LAS flight, comping the last 29 miles?)
So, you fly 8 times in packed couch for a chance at 1 upgrade, that you might not even get if you are a lowly 2P? In fact, the only time I got upgrades was when the plane wasn't packed full. Well, geez, I don't need an upgrade then. I'll be happy to sit back in coach when there is an open middle, thank you very much!
Further, you have to fly 20 round trips (40 x 629 = 25,160) to get a free domestic ticket on United. Granted, it can be less than that if you've got 2P or better status, if you rent cars, stay at hotels, etc., but that is the base amount. Compare to Southwest, where 8 round trips is one free domestic ticket. At Southwest, with the various promos, you can get that as low as 4 round trips (Hertz Quadruple credit promotion). And, you might get it as low as 10 round trips on United. Still, 4 vs 10?
And, how many round trips do you need to fly to get to far away places on United? Better price that at the standard rate, since I don't see many saver rate in the business or first class cabins (for example, DEN-SYD never has availability at saver rate).
Then, you have to consider the probability of getting an open middle seat on Southwest in coach vs. the probability of getting an open middle seat on post-TED United. Factor in A-list status or 2P status if you've got it. Factor in seat 12F on Southwest -- odds are pretty good you'll get that if you want it if you are A-list.
Then factor in the cost and hassle of the change fee (now $150 at United) and second bag fee ($25 at United, waived for 2P's or better). Factor in the "buy early" cost savings at Southwest.
The A-list definately creates a "barrier to exit" which, of course, is the whole idea of a frequent flyer program. United's Premier is now a "barrier to entry" once it has been lost in favor of A-list, since I'd have to fly 25,000 miles or 30 segments to before I could get back to that status level. United's "once-in-a-lifetime" comping rule reinforces the "barrier to entry." Unlikely that United would comp 2P for A-list anyway. Bad idea.
Dropping TED is a good thing, but unless United can 1) Match Southwest's fares, 2) Drop the change fee and second bag fee, 3) Give free unlimited first class upgrades like NW or CO and 4) Comp me 2P for my A-list, I don't see how going back would be a good idea. Southwest still has that free full can of soda (without the dirty look) and both peanuts and crackers on the 629-mile flight!
And, all of the above is based on the ASSUMPTION that United is actually going to put first class A-320's on that route, as opposed to either keeping an all coach plane (repainted) or converting to CRJ's. We won't know what is really going to happen until mid-2009.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCfree
In fact, the only time I got upgrades was when the plane wasn't packed full. Well, geez, I don't need an upgrade then. I'll be happy to sit back in coach when there is an open middle, thank you very much!
Once years ago I was upgraded and found first class full but coach 70% empty. I picked up my gear and moved back to an empty row for a long nap. Three seats in coach beat one seat in F almost any time. By that standard, my "upgrade" ratio on Southwest over the last year has been outstanding.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCfree
The end of TED won't be enough to get me to go back to United, even if they do put First Class seats on ex-TED planes and put them on the DEN-LAS route. Back when they had first class seats, getting an upgrade was a real problem.
If your route is primarily DEN-LAS, you earn 629 miles per segment. You've got to fly 8 round trips (16 x 629 = 10,064) to get a four 500-mile upgrade coupon package. You can then burn that entire package on your next DEN-LAS-DEN run, since it takes two 500-mile coupons to upgrade on the route (629 miles of actual comfort, 371 miles lost due to the fact that they still think in terms of "coupons" even though everything is electronic -- why not give twenty 100-mile coupons and take six coupons per DEN-LAS flight, comping the last 29 miles?)
So, you fly 8 times in packed couch for a chance at 1 upgrade, that you might not even get if you are a lowly 2P? In fact, the only time I got upgrades was when the plane wasn't packed full. Well, geez, I don't need an upgrade then. I'll be happy to sit back in coach when there is an open middle, thank you very much!
Further, you have to fly 20 round trips (40 x 629 = 25,160) to get a free domestic ticket on United. Granted, it can be less than that if you've got 2P or better status, if you rent cars, stay at hotels, etc., but that is the base amount. Compare to Southwest, where 8 round trips is one free domestic ticket. At Southwest, with the various promos, you can get that as low as 4 round trips (Hertz Quadruple credit promotion). And, you might get it as low as 10 round trips on United. Still, 4 vs 10?
And, how many round trips do you need to fly to get to far away places on United? Better price that at the standard rate, since I don't see many saver rate in the business or first class cabins (for example, DEN-SYD never has availability at saver rate).
Then, you have to consider the probability of getting an open middle seat on Southwest in coach vs. the probability of getting an open middle seat on post-TED United. Factor in A-list status or 2P status if you've got it. Factor in seat 12F on Southwest -- odds are pretty good you'll get that if you want it if you are A-list.
Then factor in the cost and hassle of the change fee (now $150 at United) and second bag fee ($25 at United, waived for 2P's or better). Factor in the "buy early" cost savings at Southwest.
The A-list definately creates a "barrier to exit" which, of course, is the whole idea of a frequent flyer program. United's Premier is now a "barrier to entry" once it has been lost in favor of A-list, since I'd have to fly 25,000 miles or 30 segments to before I could get back to that status level. United's "once-in-a-lifetime" comping rule reinforces the "barrier to entry." Unlikely that United would comp 2P for A-list anyway. Bad idea.
Dropping TED is a good thing, but unless United can 1) Match Southwest's fares, 2) Drop the change fee and second bag fee, 3) Give free unlimited first class upgrades like NW or CO and 4) Comp me 2P for my A-list, I don't see how going back would be a good idea. Southwest still has that free full can of soda (without the dirty look) and both peanuts and crackers on the 629-mile flight!
And, all of the above is based on the ASSUMPTION that United is actually going to put first class A-320's on that route, as opposed to either keeping an all coach plane (repainted) or converting to CRJ's. We won't know what is really going to happen until mid-2009.
We've STILL got it great here at Southwest!
You're working way too hard, and way too late at night.
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I fly both WN and legacies - and WN is great for one thing. 400 mile flights purchased 5 days in advance. Those BWI-BUF trips can't be had anywhere else for the price or convenience, and WN will keep getting my business on them if I can't book early enough to take NW or UA. That being said, I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever do a trans-con on WN. Plain and simple.
I fly both WN and legacies - and WN is great for one thing. 400 mile flights purchased 5 days in advance. Those BWI-BUF trips can't be had anywhere else for the price or convenience, and WN will keep getting my business on them if I can't book early enough to take NW or UA. That being said, I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever do a trans-con on WN. Plain and simple.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happymom2008
Why not a trans-con on WN?
No movie/IFE, opportunity for upgrade, meals opportunity (even for purchase).
Also lack of true non-stop flights...most (not all of course) trans-con routings have 2-3 stops in the middle of them.
Finally, with RR segment-based model, it de-values my reward benefits vs. legacies. For example, BWI-LAS flight = 2 RR credits, but it's 4200 FF miles round trip. So, 6 flights to gain a free domestic ticket on legacy vs. 8 trips on WN to gain free ticket.
Again, for what I consider to be their bread & butter, WN is fine. I just don't see them being a "one size fits all" airline for most people, IMO.
As a former top tier flier on US and mid tier on AA, UA and others, domestic first class is no great shakes and I prefer the IFE I bring with myself (laptop, mp3 player, etc). The miles do make a difference, but at least for me that is countered with flexibility of changing dates (ie no change fee). My views may also be different if I didn't have a million plus miles on the other airlines that I use for international trips -- like flying business to Rome in a few months. Still can't do that with Southwest.
