TalkBoard Member/Moderator: Southwest and JetBlue forums
Join Date: Sep 1999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua362
As a WN lover who cringes when I have to go LGA-ATL (frequently) I can tell you that Airtran seems to have no effect on this city pair. Their fares are just as expensive and unflexible as DL. And from observing in ATL, DL owns the place outright. WN really needs to go in and shake up the place!!
If a legacy carrier were within say 6 months of running out of cash, would Southwest's arrival at their hub force an earlier shutdown, perhaps due to increased holdbacks by the credit card merchant banks? If so, then we might see Southwest make its move before, rather than after, a major shutdown.
Either way, service at the hub will drop dramatically, because Southwest will not be using the city as a hub. It will be originating and terminating traffic only, at least to start with. So probably only half or less of the flights at that city would need to be replaced right away.
Respectfully, I think the ATA at MDW and UA at Denver situations are different, at least in their conclusion. WN obtained a business interest in ATA in order to significantly increase its gates at MDW, no? That is, it wasn't the City that forced ATA to relinquish the gates to WN.
UA, otoh, was holding onto gates it didn't need in order to block the growth of its primary competitor at Denver. In that case, it was the airport rather than a competitor that was ultimately moved to require the switch--and some would say the airport took its time pushing the change.
There was a similar situation recently at SFO where AA was holding onto all the gates in "its" concourse at T3 (despite underutilization), and the airport finally pushed AA to relinquish a gate to AC to allow the T1 reshuffle (AC from T1 to T3, WN into T1) that helped give WN space to fly out of SFO.
If a legacy carrier were within say 6 months of running out of cash, would Southwest's arrival at their hub force an earlier shutdown, perhaps due to increased holdbacks by the credit card merchant banks? If so, then we might see Southwest make its move before, rather than after, a major shutdown.
Either way, service at the hub will drop dramatically, because Southwest will not be using the city as a hub. It will be originating and terminating traffic only, at least to start with. So probably only half or less of the flights at that city would need to be replaced right away.
See Denver and how much new flight have been announced. I think WN is more of a threat to UA than F9
WN tends to expand greatly in bad times. See BWI in 80s and I suspect you will see more PHL and MDW.
My view is WN is waiting on UA or USto crumble, has their cash and credit and will pounce on UA or US hubs
Location: Westchester Co, NY or Rio Grande Valley, TX or ???
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Posts: 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua362
As a WN lover who cringes when I have to go LGA-ATL (frequently) I can tell you that Airtran seems to have no effect on this city pair. Their fares are just as expensive and unflexible as DL. And from observing in ATL, DL owns the place outright. WN really needs to go in and shake up the place!!
This won't help you for returning to LGA, but I often find that connecting fares on FL from LGA to Florida, Charleston, Savannah, or Gulfport MS can be cheaper than just booking the first segment to ATL. I have never bought a ticket for a connecting flight with the intention of "missing" the connection, and I'm pretty sure they don't treat this type of behavior the way Southwest does (one more thing for the list that started this thread!), but if you want to post on the FL forum to see if anyone has done so and what the results were (or if you want to be the guinea pig yourself!), please do so!
Thanks for the suggestion, I will look into it. Last year, they used to match DL's lowest + 40$ (RT) for fully refundable/changable "business class" seats which I could justify (and enjoy) since my schedule changes frequently and I am afraid to commit.
Programs: UA 2MM, DL 500k, SW CP, GP 1M, HH Gold, Miracle Fruit-su Club
Posts: 3,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua362
As a WN lover who cringes when I have to go LGA-ATL (frequently) I can tell you that Airtran seems to have no effect on this city pair. Their fares are just as expensive and unflexible as DL. And from observing in ATL, DL owns the place outright. WN really needs to go in and shake up the place!!
This is one of AirTran's bread and butter runs, a big reason why it can maintain the image of a LCC on its other routes. It does NOT follow Southwest's strategy, in my opinion.
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And, thank you, Hayden. I know more than I did. But, still, it looks like the impetus was similar, as well as the conclusion.
This is the single greatest secret among successful businesspeople. It takes a tremendous degree of courage and the ability not to care what others think of you, not to mention the financial and emotional ability to hang on if things go against you for a while.
Very few folks can do it. Warren Buffett's entire career has been based on this principle. I have a feeling that WN's management knows this.
Programs: UA 2MM, DL 500k, SW CP, GP 1M, HH Gold, Miracle Fruit-su Club
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCfree
Southwest has long claimed that the two cities they serve near Boston are gateways to Boston. I wonder if the landing fees are too high in Boston or if there are other factors going on there? Other airlines that keep a stranglehold on the airport? Too many delays? Bad airport design?
But these have been cited re every major airport that has been suggested on this board as a new Southwest station in the last couple of years. These and that Southwest has enough destinations, thank you. But Southwest's recent expansions have been IAD, DEN and SFO.....
This is the single greatest secret among successful businesspeople. It takes a tremendous degree of courage and the ability not to care what others think of you, not to mention the financial and emotional ability to hang on if things go against you for a while.
Very few folks can do it. Warren Buffett's entire career has been based on this principle. I have a feeling that WN's management knows this.
It is an old concept. Nathan Rothschild, the founder of the Rothschild banking legacy once said, “Great fortunes are made when the cannon balls are falling in the harbor, not when violins play in the ballroom.”
You missed the differences in route network. If you want to fly SFO-JFK direct, you are SOL on SWA. If you want to fly OAK-SNA, you are SOL on UA. And if you want to use your FF account to fly the family to Hawaii, Europe, or Asia, you are SOL on SWA. That last one is really the clincher for me. I do so much traveling that by the time I'm ready for a vacation I want to get the heck out of the country. And SWA won't get me there.
TalkBoard Member/Moderator: Southwest and JetBlue forums
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN CP & A-list, Interstate BBQ at MEM B17, CO Lifetime Presidents Club
Posts: 9,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boghopper
You missed the differences in route network. If you want to fly SFO-JFK direct, you are SOL on SWA.
Southwest long ago figured out that the value (to the customer) of a trip increases only slightly with distance. Fuel, equipment, and crew costs increase much more directly with distance. Therefore short-haul flights have greater profit potential. Higher fuel costs have increased this advantage.
Southwest is probably quite happy to let other airlines serve long-haul markets, especially including Hawaii, which has almost no price-insensitive business travelers. The needs of the FF program will never determine Southwest's route selection.
I know more than I did. But, still, it looks like the impetus was similar, as well as the conclusion.
