Like MSP, CVG, ATL? And of course your comment is non-responsive to Firewind
It is very difficult to break into a legacy carrier's hub city (NW, DL, DL, respectively). It wasn't easy for Southwest to break into Denver. The legacy and other resident carriers work hard to keep Southwest out, lest they have to compete. I once e-mailed Denver Airport before Southwest came to Denver and the response I got clearly showed their bias toward both United and Frontier. The guy who responded thought that Frontier might go out of business if Southwest came to Denver. Which, does seem to be coming true. But, that shows a complete lack of caring about the passengers who for years paid more than the flights were actually worth.
If I do need to go to MSP, CVG or ATL in the future, I'll just hop on another airline. If I needed to go to MSP or DTW a lot, I'd probably do it on NW because of the non-stop service and because I'd get status and then *hopefully* get free upgrades (at least until they merge with DL, then who knows?)
Every airline has holes in where they serve and other areas that they really concentrate on. A lot of that has to do with who they merged with (The old North Central and Republic merging into NW, giving them the upper midwest, for example). Even if a legacy airline serves two cities it doesn't mean that they have non-stop service between those two cities. As a matter of fact, its unlikely unless one of those cities is their hub.
If the MSP, CVG or ATL airports would "play fair" and let Southwest in, I'm sure they'd be glad to serve those cities. Southwest is careful in how fast they grow to ensure their long-term stability, which allows them to hedge fuel (keeping your costs low) and ensures that the airline will be around to actually have seats for you to redeem your miles/points.
If WN doesn't go there, I go with someone else. If I go somewhere a lot and might get free first class, I consider a legacy. Right now in my flight patterns, where I need to go is served by Southwest non-stops (mostly) and I don't go to an NW/CO hub enough to get status with them.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCfree
It is very difficult to break into a legacy carrier's hub city (NW, DL, DL, respectively). It wasn't easy for Southwest to break into Denver. The legacy and other resident carriers work hard to keep Southwest out, lest they have to compete. I once e-mailed Denver Airport before Southwest came to Denver and the response I got clearly showed their bias toward both United and Frontier. The guy who responded thought that Frontier might go out of business if Southwest came to Denver. Which, does seem to be coming true. But, that shows a complete lack of caring about the passengers who for years paid more than the flights were actually worth.
If I do need to go to MSP, CVG or ATL in the future, I'll just hop on another airline. If I needed to go to MSP or DTW a lot, I'd probably do it on NW because of the non-stop service and because I'd get status and then *hopefully* get free upgrades (at least until they merge with DL, then who knows?)
Every airline has holes in where they serve and other areas that they really concentrate on. A lot of that has to do with who they merged with (The old North Central and Republic merging into NW, giving them the upper midwest, for example). Even if a legacy airline serves two cities it doesn't mean that they have non-stop service between those two cities. As a matter of fact, its unlikely unless one of those cities is their hub.
If the MSP, CVG or ATL airports would "play fair" and let Southwest in, I'm sure they'd be glad to serve those cities. Southwest is careful in how fast they grow to ensure their long-term stability, which allows them to hedge fuel (keeping your costs low) and ensures that the airline will be around to actually have seats for you to redeem your miles/points.
If WN doesn't go there, I go with someone else. If I go somewhere a lot and might get free first class, I consider a legacy. Right now in my flight patterns, where I need to go is served by Southwest non-stops (mostly) and I don't go to an NW/CO hub enough to get status with them.
I knon't know about that, it's not like Southwest did a terrible job breaking into LAX, BWI, PHL, CLE, DTW, PIT, LAS, PHX, SFO, and SLC. Heck, they destroyed US Airways in PIT and BWI.
I knon't know about that, it's not like Southwest did a terrible job breaking into LAX, BWI, PHL, CLE, DTW, PIT, LAS, PHX, SFO, and SLC. Heck, they destroyed US Airways in PIT and BWI.
Good point. Perhaps it is more that Southwest has to prepare to do battle, then develop a game plan that works. Might need a different battle plan for each city. Somewhere, the stronghold of NW/DL on MSP, CVG and ATL must have been analyzed as the highest of the low hanging fruit.
They might also have some sense of what their traveler is versus what type of traveler is typically found at a given airport.
ATL is not the same demographic as WN, and to be honest it's unpleasent.
Should WN stake a very strong holding with BS fares then ATL would look promising, but in the meantime having to route leisure travelers going to anywhere in Florida through ATL just makes them as unhappy as the average bizpax at ATL.
If the MSP, CVG or ATL airports would "play fair" and let Southwest in, I'm sure they'd be glad to serve those cities.
I'll point out it's not just the airport. AA, DL, and some of the others have been know to try and run the competitor out (and I find it extremely amusing that Arpey blames the LCC's for the "downfall" of the industry).
The airport is often cowed into being afraid that they'll lose a lot of service if they allow a competitor in - CVG in particular is afraid of losing international and lots of domestic non-stops that the airport could not support were it not a hub. Since landing fees, gate rentals, etc. contribute to the bottom line, the airport seeks as much connecting traffic as possible. But in the end, if the airport think it can support more traffic without p*ssing off the incumbent, they will take the extra traffic.
With CVG, I believe that DL funded part of the terminal construction in exchange for certain exclusive rights....
Quote:
Originally Posted by KNRG
They might also have some sense of what their traveler is versus what type of traveler is typically found at a given airport.
ATL is not the same demographic as WN, and to be honest it's unpleasent.
ATL is much more difficult because it already has Airtran with a hub. Hard to support multiple LCCs plus DL's hub. Were Airtran not there, ATL might well be a candidate. (I also note that Dayton is an Airtran focus city not served by WN).
Southwest has long claimed that the two cities they serve near Boston are gateways to Boston. I wonder if the landing fees are too high in Boston or if there are other factors going on there? Other airlines that keep a stranglehold on the airport? Too many delays? Bad airport design?
Southwest has long claimed that the two cities they serve near Boston are gateways to Boston. I wonder if the landing fees are too high in Boston or if there are other factors going on there? Other airlines that keep a stranglehold on the airport? Too many delays? Bad airport design?
Hmm... JetBlue went with BOS even though PVD seemed like the typical fit for them.
In what could be the ultimate cost-cutting move by airlines buffeted by sky-high fuel prices, US Airways says it will eliminate free snacks in coach class on all its domestic flights starting June 1.
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US Airways spokesman Morgan Durrant says the move to cut free snacks was needed to save money in a time of extremely high fuel costs.
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The airline is still providing complimentary soft drinks.
Starting June 21, members booking an award ticket online will now have to pay a $5 processing fee.
Wow. FCFree can add free peanuts to the list. And at least the fee for SWA tickets isn't for processing, but instead for the "security" fee (quotes used to highlight my feelings on TSA), which is mandatory.
Also, I love how they blame all these things on the cost of fuel. Why not just raise the cost of tickets? Could you imagine if McDonalds blamed the rising cost of beef as their reason to charge for their big mac cartons?
I don't agree with that. I think the airlines know that people are still making purchasing decisions based on the quoted price, without fully considering all the add-on fees.
People will eventually catch on, so this shell game is merely a delaying tactic, one that will alienate customers to boot. I'm glad to see that Southwest is once again going its own way and resisting the lure of this short-term thinking.
When people wise up, they will start choosing Southwest even at a higher quoted price, due to no change fees and no junk fees. FTers are already doing this. Within 2 years it will be conventional wisdom. Southwest's future is looking very bright to me right now.
Anyone want to do an over under bet how fast WN will have a great ad on said fees. Before June 15 gets double odds
They might also have some sense of what their traveler is versus what type of traveler is typically found at a given airport.
ATL is not the same demographic as WN, and to be honest it's unpleasent.
Should WN stake a very strong holding with BS fares then ATL would look promising, but in the meantime having to route leisure travelers going to anywhere in Florida through ATL just makes them as unhappy as the average bizpax at ATL.
Or maybe its because Airtran is already their doing a good job giving
Delta a headache
It is very difficult to break into a legacy carrier's hub city (NW, DL, DL, respectively). It wasn't easy for Southwest to break into Denver. The legacy and other resident carriers work hard to keep Southwest out, lest they have to compete. I once e-mailed Denver Airport before Southwest came to Denver and the response I got clearly showed their bias toward both United and Frontier. The guy who responded thought that Frontier might go out of business if Southwest came to Denver. Which, does seem to be coming true.
Some at F9 may question DEN's support for the airline, given the challenges it encountered such as trying to obtain additional gates on its concourse to grow (in part, UA had been holding onto what appeared to be significantly underutilized gates, and finally got enough sweeteners to let go).
I'm not so sure that WN has had much effect on F9 at DEN, relative to other factors. Discounters like Wal-Mart often have a devastating impact on the retail options (not to mention total number of jobs, property tax receipts, etc.) in the communities in which they locate. That tends to be because the retail pie is limited, and the presence of one or more big box retailers takes a big bite out of the pie. However, Southwest's presence as a "discounter" (or at least an airline that limits the maximum charged fare on a route) has been seen to increase air travel in some cities--the pie becomes bigger.
Except for fuel, F9's unit costs are lower than WN's. My recollection is that its DEN market share, average fare, and load factors haven't declined since WN arrived--indeed, it has experienced record load factors subsequent to WN's arrival. What has happened is that fuel has gone up, and F9 is less hedged than WN (plus, although F9 is also a discounter, WN exerts downward pressure on the maximum fare on some flights). So to me it looks like F9's continuance will depend mostly on the price of fuel, and secondarily on being able to raise fares, which is somewhat influenced by WN.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayden
Some at F9 may question DEN's support for the airline, given the challenges it encountered such as trying to obtain additional gates on its concourse to grow (in part, UA had been holding onto what appeared to be significantly underutilized gates, and finally got enough sweeteners to let go)."
[*Not unlike ATA's plight at MDW.*]
"So to me it looks like F9's continuance will depend mostly on the price of fuel, and secondarily on being able to raise fares, which is somewhat influenced by WN."
Or maybe its because Airtran is already their doing a good job giving
Delta a headache
As a WN lover who cringes when I have to go LGA-ATL (frequently) I can tell you that Airtran seems to have no effect on this city pair. Their fares are just as expensive and unflexible as DL. And from observing in ATL, DL owns the place outright. WN really needs to go in and shake up the place!!
Boston?
