Cargojon and others, the DOT considers commuter carriers to be separate airlines (which they are). All stats for airlines like American Eagle, Skywest, Comair, ExpressJet (including their CO service) are counted separately from the "parent" carrier. It could be argued that you didn't fly UA from PIT-IAD-MIA because none of your flight crews worked for UA; many of the ground staff probably didn't work for UA; and the only contact with UA was through their reservations system.
For the first quarter of 2008, Skywest was the biggest commuter carrier, carrying a little more than 5 million passengers--the same size as jetBlue or AirTran. By the way, the correct DOT figure for SWA Customers in the first quarter was just under 25 million, not 21 million. UA's commuter carriers would have had to carry 10 million Customers to equal SWA's boarding.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWABrian
Cargojon and others, the DOT considers commuter carriers to be separate airlines (which they are). All stats for airlines like American Eagle, Skywest, Comair, ExpressJet (including their CO service) are counted separately from the "parent" carrier. It could be argued that you didn't fly UA from PIT-IAD-MIA because none of your flight crews worked for UA; many of the ground staff probably didn't work for UA; and the only contact with UA was through their reservations system.
For the first quarter of 2008, Skywest was the biggest commuter carrier, carrying a little more than 5 million passengers--the same size as jetBlue or AirTran. By the way, the correct DOT figure for SWA Customers in the first quarter was just under 25 million, not 21 million. UA's commuter carriers would have had to carry 10 million Customers to equal SWA's boarding.
I'm using the 21 million pax figure so we are comparing apples to apples.
Skywest runs 5 million pax/year. 65% of Skywest's flights are UAX flights. That's 3.25 millinon pax riding on UA ticket stock that aren't counted in UA's numbers. You mean to tell me that between Colgan, Mesa, Chatauqua, GoJet, Shuttle America, and Trans States all operating UAX flights, that that wouldn't make up the difference pretty easily?
The point is, comparing total pax count is not a terribly accurate statistic given the amount of Express flights that legacy airlines run, whether it us US Express, Delta Express, American Eagle, etc etc etc.
And of course, when you factor in the seat-mile figure, WN loses badly.
I'm not saying WN sucks, just let's see it for what it is, a niche carrier catering the last minute or short haul business travellers, as well as my parents heading to Florida or Vegas. Heck, I was on WN 2449 last night BWI-BUF and I'll be on WN again on Thursday. Short-haul, late purchase
Skywest runs 5 million pax/year. 65% of Skywest's flights are UAX flights. That's 3.25 millinon pax riding on UA ticket stock that aren't counted in UA's numbers. You mean to tell me that between Colgan, Mesa, Chatauqua, GoJet, Shuttle America, and Trans States all operating UAX flights, that that wouldn't make up the difference pretty easily?
Where are you getting your figures from? SkyWest carried 8 million passengers in the first quarter alone. As of March 31, 2008 of SkyWest's fleet of 440 aircraft only 165 are UX planes. How on earth do you figure that 65% of their business is flying for United?
Second, as I said in my previous posts, the passengers missing from those numbers are those that fly solely on UX, if they connect to a mainline flight they'd be in the mainline numbers. Is that a big number? Sure ... is it over 1/4 of UA's total passengers? I doubt it.
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The point is, comparing total pax count is not a terribly accurate statistic given the amount of Express flights that legacy airlines run, whether it us US Express, Delta Express, American Eagle, etc etc etc.
And of course, when you factor in the seat-mile figure, WN loses badly.
It's a perfectly accurate figure when the point being made is more customers pick one carrier over another. In the first quarter of 2008 21.5 million customers chose to fly WN. What is not accurate about that statement?
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I'm not saying WN sucks, just let's see it for what it is, a niche carrier catering the last minute or short haul business travellers, as well as my parents heading to Florida or Vegas. Heck, I was on WN 2449 last night BWI-BUF and I'll be on WN again on Thursday. Short-haul, late purchase
Great post I have learned alot about Southwest thanks.
I fly 4-5 days a week and have mid-high status US. However almost all of my flights are in the 500-600 mile range. So while I get high status quickly I dont rack up that enough miles for that many free tickets. The thought of getting a free trip after so many R/T like Southwest offers intrigues me. If you can address the below concerns/issues it would be appreciaated.
1. I am fat. Not obese but chubby. I dont use a belt extender etc but am scared to fly Wn as I am alsways thinking in the back of my head they will force me to buy two seats. Never been an issue on US and I am in FC half the time anyways. On a diet and have lost 15lbs so hopefully this will be a non issue by end of summer.
2. The prices arent always the lowest. We use an onling booking tool from carlson wagonlit. It shows all the flights side by side. WN is usually not the lowest never the highest. I would say within 50 dollars of the lowest on any given route
3. Places like LAX I see the thousands upon thousands of people lined up at the gates and it makes me nervous that I would never get a good seat. I cant check in exactly at 24hrs as I am usually on a different flight at that time.
4. I live far from the airport and am usually cutting it close to make my flight if traffic is bad. With the Elite line security at PHX (gate A) I dont have issues. Walk right up and am usually out of security in 10 minutes. Converesely I look over at WN (gate D) and the lines are really really long. With no elite or first class line I bet that it takes an hour to get thru?
5. No club access. Not a big concern becuase I have priority pass in addition to my us club membership.
6. No way to use for int tickets? I go to asia once a year but becuase I never have that many miles in my us acct always end up paying anyways.
Comments to the above? If these issues werent present i would switch to WN today
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cptango
1. I am fat. Not obese but chubby. I dont use a belt extender etc but am scared to fly Wn as I am always thinking in the back of my head they will force me to buy two seats.
If you fit with the arm rest down, you are OK. Otherwise just buy the second seat ahead of time and then phone for a refund after the flight. Unless the flight is oversold, you get your money back! It's like getting 2 seats for the price of one. One FTer reported getting the refund 100% of the time.
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2. The prices arent always the lowest.
Legacy carriers will often give you a lower price than WN on a peak hour flight, especially months in advance. If you can risk the large change fee, go for it. If the change fee is a problem, book with WN and consider the higher price to be trip insurance.
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3. Places like LAX I see the thousands upon thousands of people lined up at the gates and it makes me nervous that I would never get a good seat.
The lines move very quickly and rarely take more than 25 minutes. Furthermore, you will not lose your boarding priority if you reach the gate by 20 minutes before departure.
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I cant check in exactly at 24hrs as I am usually on a different flight at that time.
Maybe a friend can check you in. Once you reach 32 flight credits in a year, Southwest will check you in automatically.
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4. I live far from the airport and am usually cutting it close to make my flight if traffic is bad.
Cutting it close plays to Southwest's strength: high frequency service. It also plays to Southwest's weakness: no elite screening lines. I expect Southwest to address this within 1 to 2 years.
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5. No club access.
I wouldn't have the time to visit a club even if Southwest had one. I'm always showing up 5 to 10 minutes before boarding starts. Just like Nick Pudder.
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6. No way to use for int tickets?
Bummer, that one. Maybe you have a friend with a ton of legacy miles who occasionally needs domestic vacation trips.
Great post I have learned alot about Southwest thanks.
I fly 4-5 days a week and have mid-high status US. However almost all of my flights are in the 500-600 mile range. So while I get high status quickly I dont rack up that enough miles for that many free tickets. The thought of getting a free trip after so many R/T like Southwest offers intrigues me. If you can address the below concerns/issues it would be appreciaated.
1. I am fat. Not obese but chubby. I dont use a belt extender etc but am scared to fly Wn as I am alsways thinking in the back of my head they will force me to buy two seats. Never been an issue on US and I am in FC half the time anyways. On a diet and have lost 15lbs so hopefully this will be a non issue by end of summer.
2. The prices arent always the lowest. We use an onling booking tool from carlson wagonlit. It shows all the flights side by side. WN is usually not the lowest never the highest. I would say within 50 dollars of the lowest on any given route
3. Places like LAX I see the thousands upon thousands of people lined up at the gates and it makes me nervous that I would never get a good seat. I cant check in exactly at 24hrs as I am usually on a different flight at that time.
4. I live far from the airport and am usually cutting it close to make my flight if traffic is bad. With the Elite line security at PHX (gate A) I dont have issues. Walk right up and am usually out of security in 10 minutes. Converesely I look over at WN (gate D) and the lines are really really long. With no elite or first class line I bet that it takes an hour to get thru?
5. No club access. Not a big concern becuase I have priority pass in addition to my us club membership.
6. No way to use for int tickets? I go to asia once a year but becuase I never have that many miles in my us acct always end up paying anyways.
Comments to the above? If these issues werent present i would switch to WN today
The idea of getting a free Southwest ticket after 4-5 short round trips, when you rent a car and/or get a hotel room and post the car and hotel on Southwest definately is a very cool feature of Rapid Rewards that the legacy carriers have a hard time matching. Even if you are flying US Air, you might want to post your car and hotel to Southwest. Right now, that would get you 2.5 Rapid Reward credits per trip (maybe even more if you find a hotel promotion). The "2" RR credits is based on the current Hertz promotion. That is a free Southwest trip after 7 car/hotel rentals. Certainly that is a better value than 100-500 US Air miles per car or hotel. If you get 500 miles per car or hotel, that is 1,000 miles per trip of "ground miles" and you need 25 cars and 25 hotels to get a free ticket. Even if you post everything to US Air, at 500 miles per flight, that 2,000 miles per trip and you need 12.5 round trips for a free ticket.
Question #1 -- Granted, being able to be upgraded to first class can be a really big feature. An advantage at US Air is the ability to buy an upgrade at the rate of $50 per 500 miles. If you have status at US Air, are you getting free upgrades? Certainly can't complain about that, if you are. You have to balance the value of getting more comfort on the flights you must fly vs. getting more free flights. Honestly, if that was an option for me, I'd have to do some careful thinking about it. Obviously, I don't get any "FCfree" on Southwest. Yet, I choose Southwest, because there is no "FCfree" on TED and Frontier either, and no non-stop service on my primary routes on USAir, AA and the other legacy carriers. (I'm not going to go DEN-LAS via LAX, PHX or other hub city!).
You probably would have to check with Southwest to see if you are required to buy 2 seats or not. My understanding is that if the flight is less than full, Southwest will refund the other ticket.
I won't comment on the diet, because I need one too, but at least right now, I'm not dealing with the "buy 2 seats" issue. Best of luck on the diet -- I know its not easy! Consider those free tickets at Southwest as an added incentive!
Question #2 -- Certainly Southwest is not always the lowest price. However, you should factor into your total cost the cost of having to change a flight and pay change fees, if that is applicable to you. If you are flying a route that costs $300 r/t on USAir and $325 r/t on Southwest and you change flights 1 in 4 or 1 in 6 flights (based on $100 or $150 change fee, respectively), then the Southwest price is actually equal to the USAir price. (Distribute the $100 or $150 change fee over the 1 in 4 or 1 in 6 flights, that is $25 extra per flight on USAir, on average).
But, whether you are paying for the ticket, or your company or client is, it makes sense to choose the lowest fare (including the change fee x probability for change). Actually, the formula isn't quite that simple, because you've got to factor in the fact that you can book with Southwest earlier and change your mind more frequently than you can with USAir. So, factor in the "wait-and-see" costs of US Air too. If you could have bought a ticket on Southwest at $200 but you "wait-and-see" until you are more certain that you really need to go and at that point Southwest is $325 and USAir is $300, then, in fact, Southwest was cheaper. You should have booked for $200 and cancelled at Southwest if the need to travel didn't come together.
But, you've got to give an edge to US Air depending on what free and low cost first class upgrades you are getting, again depending on the frequency of you actually getting those free/low cost upgrades.
You should also factor in the times (if any) when you get to the airport early (say an out-of-town meeting finishes early) and you have to upgrade to full fare at Southwest vs. getting on an earlier US Air flight either for a small fee or no fee at all. If you do that frequently, that may negate the value of no change fee on Southwest.
Question #3 -- Should you choose to focus on Southwest, then until you earn your 32 segments and get A-list status, checking in at/near the 24-hour mark is pretty important. If you can't get to a check-in method (Internet, mobile device) at the 24-hour mark, you might consider getting a "check-in angel" -- Wife, Significant Other, Secretary or friend who will check you in at the appointed time. (Do not get a wife solely for this purpose! )
Alternatively, check in using your Blackberry or other Internet mobile device the moment you land. Being slightly off the 24-hour mark will still likely get you an "A" seat, but the closer to the 24-hour mark you can be, the better the chances of an A seat and the better the A seat it will be. Once you hit the A-list, then you don't have to check in at the 24-hour mark anymore.
If you are flying 4-5 times a week, you'd be A-list in as little as 6.5 weeks.
Question #4 -- Cutting it close at the airport makes me nervous, regardless of the status that I have. Being able to use the shorter line, whether you are close on time or not is a feature of US Air, no doubt. I had no issues using the standard check-in the one time I flew out of PHX on WN. Never been out of LAX on WN, so can't comment there. In LAS, I sometimes go through the B-gate security and take the bus over to the C-gates to save a little time and just not have to stand in line. TSA has to let you go through any security point if that security point will get you to your flight.
You can look into whether your airport(s) have the CLEAR thing that you can buy for $100/year that gives you elite line access. Figure the $100/year as part of the cost of getting those more frequent RR tickets.
If "cutting it close" is a fact of your life, the shorter elite line is important. Also note that in some airports, such as LAS, there is no direct elite status line for WN's concourse. The B-gate to C-gate thing is an option at LAS, but you've got to know that trick for the airport you are using. Great if you go there a lot, harder to find if you only go there once in a while.
Note that in LAS, there is improved security coming soon with an addition they are building. And, apparently on Sundays only, they use the "secret" security line that is under the C concourse. Why they don't have that open all the time I don't know.
Question #5 -- That is correct, no club access at WN. Of course, you can be a member of any club, status or not. There may be a discount with status. You can use the club even if not flying with that airline although the club may be located further from the WN gates, so that may be an issue -- or maybe even an issue that its on another concourse and you can't get there because of security. I only see value in the club if you are laying over at the airline's hub a lot -- a non-issue with WN. You have to judge how much you use the club and how much you'd need/wish for it if you were flying WN. For example, if you were a member of American's Admiral club at Denver, both on concourse "C", you'd be in pretty good shape, but, for me, I really don't hang out at the airport that much with WN, so I wouldn't see the value of being a member of any airline club.
Question #6 -- At this time, no way to use a RR for int'l travel. We had Hawaii until ATA went under. There is some talk that WN might go to Mexico or the Carribean in the future, but that is just speculation at this point.
As you say, when you have gone to Asia, you've never had enough miles to get there on a free ticket and you've had to pay. So, at least for you, that makes WN and USAir equal on that. Even if you had the miles, you might want to look into whether you really could have got a free ticket for the saver rate on the flights you wanted. Another real challenge to find is the ability to buy a coach seat and use miles to upgrade -- and, on a 14-hour flight, upgrading to business is really a good use of miles. But again, I find at United that such upgrades are impossible to SYD for a non-status person such as myself.
The advantage can be that if you have WN as your focus airline, then you can use any airline you like when you want to go to Asia, instead of feeling that you need to go on USAir because you want the miles to maintain/improve your status. Depending on where you are going in Asia, there are some really fun and cool airlines, such as Singapore and Cathay Pacific that you might want to try if you are not tied to USAir and the Star Alliance. And, you will still earn miles for those flights. You can do a Gold/Platinum Challenge on American and then do an AA code share on Cathay and post your miles to American. One round trip may get you AA status for a year or two.
You may even choose to go on Singapore or United to the far east and post your miles to United or US Air. Add a few more flights on UA or US and you'd hit 2P or Silver status. Then, for each additional flight, figure out if US or WN is going to give you the better service. The advantage is that you are not "locked in" to one airline.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cptango
4. I live far from the airport and am usually cutting it close to make my flight if traffic is bad. With the Elite line security at PHX (gate A) I dont have issues. Walk right up and am usually out of security in 10 minutes. Converesely I look over at WN (gate D) and the lines are really really long. With no elite or first class line I bet that it takes an hour to get thru?
I fly to PHX quite often, and just about always cut it pretty close on my return. When the C or D gate lines are really long, I use the gate B elite line with my UA 1K card and never had a problem with that. It's a long walk to work your way all the way to D, but fortunately most of flights are in C. It usually takes me about 10 minutes to get all the way to D walking briskly. (This of course would work only if you maintain your status with US).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCfree
The idea of getting a free Southwest ticket after 4-5 short round trips, when you rent a car and/or get a hotel room and post the car and hotel on Southwest definately is a very cool feature of Rapid Rewards that the legacy carriers have a hard time matching.
One of the reasons I do all my short hauls on WN. On top of that .... all the partner credits count towards Companion Pass qualification. I don't fly 50 rountrips in a year on WN, so I wouldn't be able to get the CP without the partner credits.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCfree
The idea of getting a free Southwest ticket after 4-5 short round trips, when you rent a car and/or get a hotel room and post the car and hotel on Southwest definately is a very cool feature of Rapid Rewards that the legacy carriers have a hard time matching.
The current generosity of RR to short-haul customers may not continue indefinitely. I'm guessing there's about a 50% chance of devaulation of this feature by the end of next year.
I fly to PHX quite often, and just about always cut it pretty close on my return. When the C or D gate lines are really long, I use the gate B elite line with my UA 1K card and never had a problem with that. It's a long walk to work your way all the way to D, but fortunately most of flights are in C. It usually takes me about 10 minutes to get all the way to D walking briskly. (This of course would work only if you maintain your status with US).
I think this is a good reason to have first level status with another airline -- just enough to get the elite line. This is where doing that Gold/Plat challenge at American can be useful if you are going to Asia.
In Denver, its 1P status with United, but I believe its SILVER status with US Air. And, its only Ascent status (15,000 BIS miles flown) with Frontier. Gold from American also works.
There was some discussion that just having a RR card would get you through the elite line at *some* airports. Is that still true?
The current generosity of RR to short-haul customers may not continue indefinitely. I'm guessing there's about a 50% chance of devaulation of this feature by the end of next year.
I would hope that Southwest would not give only 1/2 RR credit for a flight less than 500 miles, a move equal to United's recent devaluation where there is no 500 mile minimum for any flight.
Even if it is devalued, 1/2 RR credit is worth more than 500 miles on a legacy carrier. Right now, this is important for the car and hotel rentals.
I compute 1/2 RR credit is equal to 781 legacy carrier miles, based on 781 x 32 = approx 25,000 miles -- one free domestic ticket.
I still believe that award availability is higher on Southwest than on the legacies, who are hooked on this saver vs. standard award thing as a way to devalue their programs.
Also note that some short car rentals only yield 50 to 150 legacy carrier miles, yet still yield 1/2 RR credit.
#1 - IMHO, the media has made much more fuss about this policy than it actually warrants. In fact, whatever airline you are flying today probably has a very similar policy-it just wasn't touted in the news. As stated before if you can sit in the seat with the armrests down, you should be fine. My guess from your description (chubby not obese) and the fact that you don't need a seatbelt extension, is that you won't have a problem.
#2 - also make sure you are comparing final purchase prices. SWA doesn't currently charge a fuel surcharge while most others do. So, the "fare" may be less on the other carrier, but once all taxes and fees are added it may turn out that the purchase price is actually the same, or even lower on SWA.
#3 - You can always choose to buy Business Select and then you don't have to worry about 24 hour checkin. Of course, that may conflict with trying to get the lowest price
)
