Speculation-palooza: What new fees are coming next year
Oct 23, 2012, 9:39 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 401
Speculation-palooza: What new fees are coming next year
GK excerpts from the Q3 conference call on Oct. 18:
--"...I did want to admit what I think is the obvious, which is we're off (financial) plan. We do have some concerns about the economy and higher fuel prices, and I don't we want to just continue on with business as usual. So we will be looking for way to augment our current strategies which I'm very enthused about already...." (Don't you feel the enthusiasm?)
--When asked if that could mean "reconsidering" Bags Fly Free: "Well, for now, of course not. I don't think we would ever say no to anything whether it's assigned seats or charging per bags, but we'll be looking for any and all good ideas...."
I think they have too much invested in BFF to pull the plug, but GK is retreating from the past when he said it was sacrosanct. The Wall Street jackals have never liked it, but GK's response was that the extra passengers that flew WN because of BFF more than compensated for the lack of bag revenue. No mention of that this time.
I think ticket change fees are coming. Wall Street has never liked the lack of change fees either (they're a tough crowd to please) and they are less visible than some other possible changes, such as assigned seats with better locations costing extra.
Have at it.
--"...I did want to admit what I think is the obvious, which is we're off (financial) plan. We do have some concerns about the economy and higher fuel prices, and I don't we want to just continue on with business as usual. So we will be looking for way to augment our current strategies which I'm very enthused about already...." (Don't you feel the enthusiasm?)
--When asked if that could mean "reconsidering" Bags Fly Free: "Well, for now, of course not. I don't think we would ever say no to anything whether it's assigned seats or charging per bags, but we'll be looking for any and all good ideas...."
I think they have too much invested in BFF to pull the plug, but GK is retreating from the past when he said it was sacrosanct. The Wall Street jackals have never liked it, but GK's response was that the extra passengers that flew WN because of BFF more than compensated for the lack of bag revenue. No mention of that this time.
I think ticket change fees are coming. Wall Street has never liked the lack of change fees either (they're a tough crowd to please) and they are less visible than some other possible changes, such as assigned seats with better locations costing extra.
Have at it.
Oct 23, 2012, 9:55 am
#2
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,613
Several years back (pre-RR 2.0) I got a survey asking about different fare classes, some of which would carry change fees of IIRC $25 to $50. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now.
Southwest has enabled me to commute weekly at reasonable cost. I'd very much like that to continue. I like being loyal to a company that's loyal to me.
Oct 23, 2012, 9:59 am
#3
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Minneapolis, originally from Cincinnati
Programs: Diamond with Delta, Hyatt and Hilton. 2 MM and Plat with America (thank you citi:))
Posts: 2,345
IIRC, assigned seats is a requirement for international flights, so if Southwest has to go through the procedure of implementing it on international flights, I could see them doing it on domestic flights as well.
Southwest would be foolish to start charging for all bags seeing how much they advertise that bags fly free (even though on some flights it is cheaper to take the competition and bag for one checked bag). What I do see happening is Southwest changing their policy of two free checked bags to one.
Seeing the competition charges $150 to all their passengers, I could see WN eliminating it on their cheapest fare class or putting a lot more restrictions on the policy such as allowing a current reservation to be changed instead of allowing the entire reservation to be cancelled and issuing a TTF credit.
If Southwest does start offering flights to places like HI and they do go with assigned seats, I could see them offering an economy comfort type product that their competition has in the first few rows with more leg room and recline and free drinks.
If they are going to start offering longer flights, I can also see them having food for sale and possibly IFE.
Southwest would be foolish to start charging for all bags seeing how much they advertise that bags fly free (even though on some flights it is cheaper to take the competition and bag for one checked bag). What I do see happening is Southwest changing their policy of two free checked bags to one.
Seeing the competition charges $150 to all their passengers, I could see WN eliminating it on their cheapest fare class or putting a lot more restrictions on the policy such as allowing a current reservation to be changed instead of allowing the entire reservation to be cancelled and issuing a TTF credit.
If Southwest does start offering flights to places like HI and they do go with assigned seats, I could see them offering an economy comfort type product that their competition has in the first few rows with more leg room and recline and free drinks.
If they are going to start offering longer flights, I can also see them having food for sale and possibly IFE.
Oct 23, 2012, 10:28 am
#4
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,613
Assigned seats lead to premium seating, which leads to FF upgrades. Pretty soon Southwest is JustAnotherAirline(TM).
It could happen, but it would be the extinction of what Herb gave birth to.
It could happen, but it would be the extinction of what Herb gave birth to.
Oct 23, 2012, 11:16 am
#5
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: ORD-LAS
Programs: UA MM 1K, Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium Elite
Posts: 4,419
I agree! I was 1K now 1MMer on UA, but WN has shown me more loyalty in the last 2 years than UA does now. I've remained loyal and have moved about 60% of my travel to WN. I even pay more for to fly WN. If they go to Assigned seating and FF miles, upgrades, etc., I'll just go back to UA. I have found a new love for WN and would like to keep it that way.
Oct 23, 2012, 11:45 am
#6
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Minneapolis, originally from Cincinnati
Programs: Diamond with Delta, Hyatt and Hilton. 2 MM and Plat with America (thank you citi:))
Posts: 2,345
I agree! I was 1K now 1MMer on UA, but WN has shown me more loyalty in the last 2 years than UA does now. I've remained loyal and have moved about 60% of my travel to WN. I even pay more for to fly WN. If they go to Assigned seating and FF miles, upgrades, etc., I'll just go back to UA. I have found a new love for WN and would like to keep it that way.
If you fly enough to be 1K on United why would you be against upgrades and assigned seats?????? Airlines typically hold back seats for the highest tier members. And who wouldn't want to be upgraded to first class compared to sitting in the back of the bus??????? If I am checking a bag, I am usually one of the last to board if I am in coach. I would rather be enjoying another adult beverage knowing where I am seated, before jumping on the plane than waiting 20 minutes on a plane for it to board. If I am in coach carrying on I will board early to insure I have bin space and if I am in first class I will board early if I want a PDB and am wearing a jacket I need hung to make it easier on the Flight Attendants. Those things aren't important, and can sometimes be a hassle for the leisure flyer or someone that flies short hauls, but for someone like me that flies 100,000+ BIS miles a year, I enjoy having an assigned seat and the chance at an upgrade on a four or five hour long flight.
If Southwest is going to do international flights, they are probably going to be forced to use assigned seating on those flights. And if they want to win the business customer over, provide premium seats on those flights. Southwest has already made a lot of changes to their business plan in the past five years. They acquired another carrier. They are now trying to offer international and long haul service. They now have priority security and check in lanes for their most frequent flyers. Rapid Rewards went through major changes a couple years ago. On a lot of the routes I have priced out of MSP they are just as or more expensive than Delta or American. This airline is being ran a lot differently than it was five to ten years ago.
Oct 23, 2012, 12:05 pm
#7
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Houston (HOU/IAH)
Programs: WN, UA, DL, AA, Chase UR, Amex MR
Posts: 2,267
I've heard heard multiple mentions both here and on airliners that international flights legally require assigned seating but nobody has cited a source. So, in the spirit of Wikipedia, [citation needed] on the assigned seating on international flights claim.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing on it, just want to see if it really, truly is a requirement.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing on it, just want to see if it really, truly is a requirement.
Oct 23, 2012, 12:41 pm
#8
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: ORD-LAS
Programs: UA MM 1K, Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium Elite
Posts: 4,419
I don't see Southwest switching their program from a revenue to a miles based program. There are threads in the American and Delta forums speculating they may move their programs from miles based to revenue based programs.
If you fly enough to be 1K on United why would you be against upgrades and assigned seats?????? Airlines typically hold back seats for the highest tier members. And who wouldn't want to be upgraded to first class compared to sitting in the back of the bus??????? If I am checking a bag, I am usually one of the last to board if I am in coach. I would rather be enjoying another adult beverage knowing where I am seated, before jumping on the plane than waiting 20 minutes on a plane for it to board. If I am in coach carrying on I will board early to insure I have bin space and if I am in first class I will board early if I want a PDB and am wearing a jacket I need hung to make it easier on the Flight Attendants. Those things aren't important, and can sometimes be a hassle for the leisure flyer or someone that flies short hauls, but for someone like me that flies 100,000+ BIS miles a year, I enjoy having an assigned seat and the chance at an upgrade on a four or five hour long flight.
If Southwest is going to do international flights, they are probably going to be forced to use assigned seating on those flights. And if they want to win the business customer over, provide premium seats on those flights. Southwest has already made a lot of changes to their business plan in the past five years. They acquired another carrier. They are now trying to offer international and long haul service. They now have priority security and check in lanes for their most frequent flyers. Rapid Rewards went through major changes a couple years ago. On a lot of the routes I have priced out of MSP they are just as or more expensive than Delta or American. This airline is being ran a lot differently than it was five to ten years ago.
If you fly enough to be 1K on United why would you be against upgrades and assigned seats?????? Airlines typically hold back seats for the highest tier members. And who wouldn't want to be upgraded to first class compared to sitting in the back of the bus??????? If I am checking a bag, I am usually one of the last to board if I am in coach. I would rather be enjoying another adult beverage knowing where I am seated, before jumping on the plane than waiting 20 minutes on a plane for it to board. If I am in coach carrying on I will board early to insure I have bin space and if I am in first class I will board early if I want a PDB and am wearing a jacket I need hung to make it easier on the Flight Attendants. Those things aren't important, and can sometimes be a hassle for the leisure flyer or someone that flies short hauls, but for someone like me that flies 100,000+ BIS miles a year, I enjoy having an assigned seat and the chance at an upgrade on a four or five hour long flight.
If Southwest is going to do international flights, they are probably going to be forced to use assigned seating on those flights. And if they want to win the business customer over, provide premium seats on those flights. Southwest has already made a lot of changes to their business plan in the past five years. They acquired another carrier. They are now trying to offer international and long haul service. They now have priority security and check in lanes for their most frequent flyers. Rapid Rewards went through major changes a couple years ago. On a lot of the routes I have priced out of MSP they are just as or more expensive than Delta or American. This airline is being ran a lot differently than it was five to ten years ago.
Oct 23, 2012, 1:19 pm
#9
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Minneapolis, originally from Cincinnati
Programs: Diamond with Delta, Hyatt and Hilton. 2 MM and Plat with America (thank you citi:))
Posts: 2,345
Yes I fly enough, but have you been on UA recently? CO has killed that airline. First upgrades are not hapenning anymore. They are selling upgrades for cheap. I enjoy flying WN. I fly coach on WN, but I'm in row 1 often. United has flooded ORD with Barbie Jets and I won't stand for it. If it's a barbie jet flight, I'll take WN, no question. Now with 100% bonus points on WN, and free wifi(not the greatest but better than nothing), I'm not stressing for UA first class.
I don't mind Southwest on the one in a while short haul, but prefer Delta or American for longer trips, and I do a lot of international travel. On a four to five hour trip, the upgrades are great even though domestic F doesn't begin to compare with International J. And if there is no upgrade, on Delta I have economy comfort with more leg room and American is suppose to be adding that product soon as well. I agree that WiFi for free is a great benefit and I wish legacy carriers would add that as a choice benefit for their more loyal passengers.
The biggest advantage to me with a legacy are with international travel and TSA precheck. I fly international three to four times a year and 1/4 to 1/3 of the time I get moved up to J for free. On the times I sit in back I have economy comfort seating with extra legroom and recline and free unlimited adult drinks.
TSA precheck has been a real benefit for me. I fly LAS/MSP and LAX/MSP frequently and in both of those cities I can be curbside to the gate in under five minutes.
Oct 23, 2012, 1:39 pm
#10
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In Exile
Programs: I fly for free.
Posts: 435
IIRC, assigned seats is a requirement for international flights, so if Southwest has to go through the procedure of implementing it on international flights, I could see them doing it on domestic flights as well.
Oct 23, 2012, 2:15 pm
#12
Join Date: May 2012
Location: DCA, lived MCI, SEA/PDX,BUF (born/raised)
Programs: Marriott (Silver/Gold), IHG, Carlson, Best Western, Choice( Gold), AS (MVP), WN, UA
Posts: 8,687
In combination with the smaller/ thinner seats I can see them creating business class seating where you get more legroom. I can see them charging $$$ for the cattle class to purchase these seats.
I can also see them serving meals on 4+ hr flights. There is a profit from meals.
I can see them charging for a second checked bag but they give exemptions to the type of fare purchased or if the flight was part of a package.
The problem they will have in the system they create are assigned seat flights and unassigned seat flights. They may have a dummy seat assignment for domestic flights.
If they do that they may give passengers the option to guarantee a window or aisle seat.
Then that means the A= window, B=aisle, C= middle seat.
The problem will be with the thru passengers and how they seat.
I can also see them serving meals on 4+ hr flights. There is a profit from meals.
I can see them charging for a second checked bag but they give exemptions to the type of fare purchased or if the flight was part of a package.
The problem they will have in the system they create are assigned seat flights and unassigned seat flights. They may have a dummy seat assignment for domestic flights.
If they do that they may give passengers the option to guarantee a window or aisle seat.
Then that means the A= window, B=aisle, C= middle seat.
The problem will be with the thru passengers and how they seat.
Oct 23, 2012, 3:01 pm
#13
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: ORD/MDW
Programs: AA EXP, DL-Plat, WN-CP | Hotels: Choice-Gld, IHG-Plt, Rad-Gld, HH-Dia, Hyatt-Glob, Marriott-LtPlt
Posts: 2,889
There are some $0 "Fees" listed on the Optional Travel Charges page of the Southwest website that could be increased.
A couple of fees that I could see changing:
2nd Checked Bag --> from $0 to $25 (keeping the first bag free)
Phone Reservation Fee --> from $0 to $10 [or $20]
A couple of fees that I could see changing:
2nd Checked Bag --> from $0 to $25 (keeping the first bag free)
Phone Reservation Fee --> from $0 to $10 [or $20]
Oct 23, 2012, 3:07 pm
#14
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HOU, IAH
Programs: WN A-List, CP, Marriott Gold
Posts: 67
Well folks... It really does look like the beginning of the end. We've been saying it for years... but I looks real to me now. And in the end, I think WN will look more like FL, than FL, WN. It seems that the process is well underway. I can easily envision reconfigurations of the cabins to include an Economy Plus seating scheme, paying for one bag and introducing a nominal change fee (of course, it will be lower than the other airlines). If you think RR2 is bad, just wait 'til we see RR3... Award flight change fees (1,000 pts. per change, 1,000 pts to check a second bag) In addition to all of that, I think at this time WN is quite subtlety guiding people to Air Tran by offering lower (sometimes substantially lower) fares on FL. For example, compare fares on WN to those of FL. It's been my experience lately that FL has many lower fares on the routes I fly than WN where both fly to the same city. And, indeed, I have bought flights on FL because of this fare difference. I may not make CP and A List next year because of this. It would be interesting to see if other FTers have observed the same shift of lower fares to FL. Getting WN FFers onto FL's website gradually accustoms the WN FF base to Air Tran's M.O. making an integration (and its end product) more acceptable to us, even though it is likely, from a flyer's point of view, to be quite inferior to WN's current business model. DL, US, AA, and UA must have big smiles on their faces... WN...? Our love has been great, but I've lost that LUVin' feeling and I just can't get it back.
Oct 23, 2012, 3:11 pm
#15
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Minneapolis, originally from Cincinnati
Programs: Diamond with Delta, Hyatt and Hilton. 2 MM and Plat with America (thank you citi:))
Posts: 2,345
I thought that on any internationial flight, the seats had to be assigned. Perhaps I heard wrong? Regardless I wouldn't want to do open seating on a long international flight.
One other fee I can see Southwest increasing is the charge for alcohol. American and Delta charge $7 for a mini. But then both airlines provide a free drink for their higher tier frequent flyers on each flight they aren't upgraded on and Delta use a better quality vodka than Southwest. I would rather pay $7 for a mini of Absolut on Delta than $5 for that vodka Southwest serves (and Northwest used to serve the same brand).
One other fee I can see Southwest increasing is the charge for alcohol. American and Delta charge $7 for a mini. But then both airlines provide a free drink for their higher tier frequent flyers on each flight they aren't upgraded on and Delta use a better quality vodka than Southwest. I would rather pay $7 for a mini of Absolut on Delta than $5 for that vodka Southwest serves (and Northwest used to serve the same brand).
