shoelessj

I know this is a frequent lament but had to comment on a recent flight experience (Dallas-MDW). Sat across from a young couple in apparent great shape. Was surprised that they eventually preboarded (full flight). Didn't think a lot about this (maybe a recent surgery or something). I shared the shuttle bus to parking with them (of course they boarded and exited first) and was amazed to see them hefting large suitcases and backpacks- I mean an amazing haul.
This probably was a ploy (preboarding) to store all this luggage on board (was not checked).

Can't Wn simply ask for a doctor's note to allow preboard?

I know these can be scammed but the airline really needs to look at this especially with the decreasing value of EB location.

Swens6

Topic has been beat to death and you'll prob get a lot of smart *** comments... But I agree, its ridiculous. Yesterday my flight from Dallas to Houston had 6 or so pre-boarders and all but one easily got themselves on the plane with no signs of any ailments.

Yes, I know, there could be something going on that we don't know about, but that is the exception, not the rule. No way in hell 5 people out of the 100 or so boarding had conditions warranting pre-board that weren't visible.

shoelessj

I know it is beat to death but you would think this attention would be acknowledged by WN.
The more PB gets abused I am thinking the greater the push to take 'advantage' of this. In the old days PB was extended to families and on some flights to MCO you could be an A boarder and get on late in the game.
I book BSelect exclusively and have retained my loyalty to WN primarily because of the generous rewards program.
I just appreciate some clearly defined rules and sometimes I think WN ducks from enforcement because they don't want to be user unfriendly- don't understand that this can be a source of frustration for other passengers. JMHO

SpaceCoastBill

My last trip both legs had people sitting in the wheelchairs by the gate. While waiting they got up and walked around the terminal only to come back shortly before boarding and get into the wheelchair.

After we landed, both got up, pulled their bags from the overhead and left the airplane and walked all the way to baggage claim, where they picked big bags from the belt and carried them out the door.

I think they should do away with pre-boarding and put them between B and C. I bet they lose the mass of pre-borders.

I dont know the answer, but I dont think a doctors note will work.

Often1

The topic has been beat to death because it has very little to do with WN and everything to do with the ACAA and the limitations of WN may ask and what it may do.

Easy solution: seat assignments. Until that happens, this is yet another thread which the Mods will hopefully come along and merge.

While these problems affect every carrier, they are exacerbated on WN because the lack of seat assignments means that boarding earlier means a better seat.

WN cannot challenge an assertion that an individual has a condition requires pre-boarding. Agents could undergo specialized training in how not to cross the line, but that is expensive, time-consuming and likely makes the boarding slower, especially at outstations (and the process needs to be consistent).

The flip side is that you have no idea whether or what the individual's disability is. Perhaps he can't walk fast, but can walk slowly just fine (balance issues), perhaps a mental health issue. All it takes is some agent saying something, "what are you, nuts?" and WN faces large fines and, of course, a lawsuit.

dlaue

My solution (which violates HIPPA and the Air Carrier Access Act):

Keep a list of passengers requesting early boarding and comfort animals. All airlines share the list.

Require a doctor's note if they want to fly in the future WITHOUT early boarding or their animal.

Kevin AA

I fail to see how a policy that all pre-boarders must sit behind the exit row (unless you require an aisle chair, which is quite obvious) is somehow invalid. I started a thread on this matter and it generated several pages of replies and I even made the FT "hot threads". ^

In other words, if this same type of logic were to be applied to say, Delta, that means that anyone who says "I need pre-boarding" could sit in C+ (or on AA, MCE, or on UA, E+), at no charge. Fat chance of that happening!!! Why is it that DL, UA and AA can get away with making pre-boarders sit in their assigned seats behind the exit row (where there's no upcharge for more legroom)? WN should be able to do the exact same thing.

On AA, DL, UA, and Allegiant (and others too), seats at the front of coach cost more, unless you are disabled and absolutely MUST sit there, a number which is very, very low. Why can't Southwest Airlines do this?

Several years ago, I accompanied a disabled person to a Delta flight GSP-MCO. Prior to the flight, I called Delta on the phone and got him a bulkhead seat. He has no use of the left side of his entire body. He clearly qualifies for disabled pre-boarding (bulkhead seating, obviously). The TSA was nice enough to let me through their fake security, and I watched him board before everyone else. I didn't watch him take his seat, but I assume it was the one on his boarding pass which was 1-something (some RJ with no first class on it).

Southwest Airlines needs to made a decision -- 1) keep going with the current ........ and piss off your loyal customers, 2) make the fake pre-boaders sit behind the exit row (or bulkhead seating if you actually need it), or 3) go to assigned seating like everyone else.

shoelessj

Good points. I agree.

Interesting thought of how WN would handle assigned seating. I would think it would decimate Business Select as we know it. I fly this with at least the
hope that I will have an exit row or bulkhead aisle. If I could see these were not available in advance it would certainly influence my thinking of what fare I would pay. Frankly the Business Select fares are getting outlandish anyway- many times as much as first class on other traditional carriers.

nsx

I believe it would be allowed. Southwest tried this policy many years ago. Flight attendants found enforcement impractical.

Especially these days, what would you suggest flight attendants do if a preboarder sits in a front row and refuses to move to the rear. Call the cops and have the person removed? Cancel the flight? Or allow the abuse, in which case it's a policy only applying to chumps.

Face it, any policy requiring on-board enforcement will delay flights. That costs real money.

3Cforme

When the solutions put forward:

- violate the law

- require unionized employees to adopt confrontational stances on-board with passengers

- and/or reduce profitability as a result of delays

it's no wonder today's system is the one that is durable.

Close reads of the Air Carrier Access Act (or summary) and the CFR relating to exit seat use would serve the OP well.

https://www.transportation.gov/airco...s-disabilities

LegalTender

Pre-boarders sit in the cabin they paid for, unless their profile stipulates bulkhead. C+/E+/MCE are designated separate cabins.

Nearly all 3-section configs have available rows behind them and ahead of the exit rows. Nothing I'm aware of prevents pre-boarders from sitting there.

WN's sit-anywhere enlightenment can't blackball "special needs" flyers. It defeats the therapeutic value.

GrayAnderson

How about "allow the abuse but make a note in a file on them"? IANAL but I suspect that someone repeatedly refusing to abide by an otherwise-valid preboard policy might be subject to a preboard ban on the basis of repeated abuse of process (or some other punishment). You'd need multiple incidents for it to take, I suspect, but I also suspect that folks doing this don't tend to just do it once.

shoelessj

Is WN obligated to offer preboard? I am not sure this is the case.
So why not forgo preboard and you get the number like everyone else.
How can this be prejudicial?
Frankly very few preboarders I see take any longer to board the plane and when they sit (invariably) in front (with their posse of varying size again based on GA subjective thoughts) and get off first any delays are seen at this point.
I think we are all sympathetic toward people with real mobility issues. Unfortunately an increasing number choose to game the system.

gwhitti

"Especially these days, what would you suggest flight attendants do if a preboarder sits in a front row and refuses to move to the rear. Call the cops and have the person removed? Cancel the flight? Or allow the abuse, in which case it's a policy only applying to chumps.

Face it, any policy requiring on-board enforcement will delay flights. That costs real money."

I had this exact scenario going from PVR-HOU in March. I had paid for EBCI and had A 26. My name was called just before boarding to say I had been chosen for Extra TSA screening. I was told that when i finished with the screening i could just immediately proceed to board the plane regardless of my Boarding #. I do not travel with carry-on so my screening went quickly and I was able to board when the Pre Boarders were just starting to board. I felt myself fortunate in that I could now choose an exit row that I usually miss. I sat in the exit row while the actual Pre Boarders were also boarding and the FA immediately told my that since I was a Pre Boarder I couldn't sit in the exit row. I explained that I was NOT a Pre Boarder by definition but just allowed to board when I was ready. I explained the extra screening and showed her my A 26 actual boarding pass to confirm that I was not a Pre Boarder with a disability. She refused to allow me to sit there since I boarded with the Pre Boarders I was Pre Boarder regardless of what my Boarding pass said or my instructions from the gate agent were. I got up and waited in the gateway until General Boarding was called and then entered with the first General Boarders. She again refused my seat in the exit row because since I had first entered with the Pre Boarders I was a Pre Boarder still. I refused to move and she went away then came back with the decision that I could stay in the exit row but that it wasn't right. Although later in the flight she did offer me free champagne.

Often1

3Cforme suggested that you read the DOT rules under the ACAA and he provided you a link. When you have done that, you won't have to ask questions like this nor will many others.

In this thread alone:

1. WN need not offer pre-boarding at all, but it must provide assistance in boarding and in the cabin, including placing & retrieving carry-ons in the OH. The result is that WN could board in the standard manner and if the first disabled passenger is A10, A1-9 would board. The line then stops for 3-4 minutes while A10 is boarded. Then boarding resumes with A11 and stops again for the next disabled passenger. I am not one of those efficiency experts, but if there are only 4 disabled passengers on the flight, this adds 9-12 minutes to total boarding time rather than one short burst when all disabled passengers board. It also requires special acommodations for the line logistics in case someone's disability involves their ability to stand.

2. The ACAA expressly prohibits denying a specific seat to an individual other than on safety grounds, e.g. exit row. Forcing the disabled into the back of the bus is a direct violation of the ACAA and frankly, a host of civil rights laws which date to a time when others were required to sit in the back.

3. WN can't question the nature of a disability. Some disabilities are self-evident and some not.

Bottom line is that this is a cost of the no seat assignment policy. There is an easy solution. WN knows what it is. That would be seat assignments for all. Pretty much every other carrier does it. Until and unless Congress changes the law, DOT changes the rules, or WN assigns seats, this is a pointless repeat discussion.