Cities That Have Lost the Most Flights
Jul 23, 2015, 6:31 pm
#16
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,120
I am really sad about this. Last year, I discovered how nifty it was to make a connection in MKE when going DCA-SEA. I really like the MKE terminal.
I have been trying to book an award ticket in Sept to go DCA-MKE-SEA. There is one, but it is way too early (the DCA-MKE flight leaves at 6:10am, metro doesn't start running 'til 5am). I tried making a custom connection through MKE with a later DCA flight, but that's a no-go because there is just one non stop flight that goes from MKE-SEA (at 9:40am). It seemed like it was a lot easier to book through MKE last year.
I have been trying to book an award ticket in Sept to go DCA-MKE-SEA. There is one, but it is way too early (the DCA-MKE flight leaves at 6:10am, metro doesn't start running 'til 5am). I tried making a custom connection through MKE with a later DCA flight, but that's a no-go because there is just one non stop flight that goes from MKE-SEA (at 9:40am). It seemed like it was a lot easier to book through MKE last year.
While Southwest has all of those routes, I've noticed that scheduling has changed and such connections aren't emphasized or even offered anymore. Perhaps it's to increase or cater to MKE O&D. I think so far all is well, as no coastal routes have been dropped from MKE. Southwest appears committed on MKE-SFO and perhaps wants to keep exclusivity, over degrading it to MKE-OAK for example.
Jul 23, 2015, 9:13 pm
#17
Join Date: Oct 2010
Programs: My opinions are my own and not that of my employer(s)
Posts: 1,411
After YX/F9 F9 is now just one per day. The data might include inbound and outbound and possibly not preened for codeshares.
Consider the mergers in order. UA/CO WN/FL and lastly AA/US. Again maybe codeshares...
There was duplication and as I mentioned some of the flights to hub cities have been upguaged.
AA had been CRJs to DFW and then started putting 80s on it (lately occasional A319s)
One never saw DL 753 or even 738s on scheduled routes until about two years ago now they're a regular sight. DL also did add LGA and BOS...
Number of flights isn't a measure of passengers traveled for MKE. http://www.mitchellairport.com/files...er_Traffic.pdf
You will see 2010-2011 was a period of fare wars that drained a ton of cash from RJET. They tried to rebuild the old YX network and failed miserably.
RJET as I recall from that period was about $4B in debt and around $150M in unrestricted cash yet operating thousands of flights mainly for other carriers. Most would have called that circling the drain. It was free market and a stupid decision by Bryan Bedford that really threatened to take down their core business of RJ flying. Just my opinion of course.
Consider the mergers in order. UA/CO WN/FL and lastly AA/US. Again maybe codeshares...
There was duplication and as I mentioned some of the flights to hub cities have been upguaged.
AA had been CRJs to DFW and then started putting 80s on it (lately occasional A319s)
One never saw DL 753 or even 738s on scheduled routes until about two years ago now they're a regular sight. DL also did add LGA and BOS...
Number of flights isn't a measure of passengers traveled for MKE. http://www.mitchellairport.com/files...er_Traffic.pdf
You will see 2010-2011 was a period of fare wars that drained a ton of cash from RJET. They tried to rebuild the old YX network and failed miserably.
RJET as I recall from that period was about $4B in debt and around $150M in unrestricted cash yet operating thousands of flights mainly for other carriers. Most would have called that circling the drain. It was free market and a stupid decision by Bryan Bedford that really threatened to take down their core business of RJ flying. Just my opinion of course.
Last edited by traveller001; Jul 23, 2015 at 11:34 pm
Jul 24, 2015, 9:38 am
#18
Join Date: Jul 2004
Programs: AA US
Posts: 378
Jul 26, 2015, 8:38 pm
#20
Join Date: Oct 2010
Programs: My opinions are my own and not that of my employer(s)
Posts: 1,411
While Southwest has all of those routes, I've noticed that scheduling has changed and such connections aren't emphasized or even offered anymore. Perhaps it's to increase or cater to MKE O&D. I think so far all is well, as no coastal routes have been dropped from MKE. Southwest appears committed on MKE-SFO and perhaps wants to keep exclusivity, over degrading it to MKE-OAK for example.
Jul 28, 2015, 12:23 pm
#21
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Programs: HH Gold, AA Gold
Posts: 10,458
Umm, I guess you are entitled to your opinion. However, facts state otherwise. STL was really done in by the aftermath of 9/11, its proximity to DFW, and the bad economic conditions that followed. OTOH, CLT was/is a powerful, profitable domestic hub in the Southeast (a region that pmAA didn't serve well). CLT has absolutely NOTHING to worry about.
Jul 29, 2015, 3:23 pm
#22
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,337
Umm, I guess you are entitled to your opinion. However, facts state otherwise. STL was really done in by the aftermath of 9/11, its proximity to DFW, and the bad economic conditions that followed. OTOH, CLT was/is a powerful, profitable domestic hub in the Southeast (a region that pmAA didn't serve well). CLT has absolutely NOTHING to worry about.
And as for CLT, it's a fact that AA has been holding CLT hostage by requesting extensions and additional tax breaks. A simple google search will give plenty of articles which PROVE my point.
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/loca...eopardy/nj7ZF/
Even the flights crews based in CLT expect reductions in operations starting as early as 2017. When that happens (and it will), I expect WN to take advantage.
Jul 29, 2015, 5:26 pm
#23
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: ORD, MDW or MKE
Programs: American and Southwest. Hilton and Marriott hotels primarily.
Posts: 6,460
Umm, I guess you are entitled to your opinion. However, facts state otherwise. STL was really done in by the aftermath of 9/11, its proximity to DFW, and the bad economic conditions that followed. OTOH, CLT was/is a powerful, profitable domestic hub in the Southeast (a region that pmAA didn't serve well). CLT has absolutely NOTHING to worry about.
Jul 29, 2015, 9:44 pm
#24
Join Date: Oct 2010
Programs: My opinions are my own and not that of my employer(s)
Posts: 1,411
FWIW I haven't been through STL since TWA and Ozark were flying. Has STL seen a 747 other than Airforce One since?
Jul 30, 2015, 6:14 am
#25
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: National Capitol Region
Programs: Delta Dirt Medallion,AA,USairways, WN Rapid Rewards, National Emerald Club
Posts: 3,912
LOL. Nothing you said was factual. All completely biased conjecture. Its a fact that Don Carty bought TWA mainly for its assets on the cheap (it went BK) and to push international traffic from STL to ORD and DFW. Then when WN pushed for expansion in 2003, AA didn't want to play ball and further reduced flights.
CLT is a well-positioned hub in the Southeast and I don't see much reduction.
Jul 30, 2015, 8:46 am
#26
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,120
I don't think Southwest has all that much interest in CLT aside from it being another spoke. A lot of the traffic that AA handles out of CLT is regional and Southwest services such few airports in the East and some rather lightly. It still keeps CLT-BWI at 2x daily, and it might be having to fight to keep traffic on it. And no CLT-DEN yet.
I noticed $59-60 fares later in August and beyond on CLT-BWI, which is a good deal for a BWI short-haul in the peak summer time.
Last edited by rtalk25; Jul 30, 2015 at 9:04 am
Jul 30, 2015, 9:00 am
#27
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,337
One has to remember the historical facts - STL and TWA were dogs for AA before day one. In what has to be a great "oh sh**" moment, AA tried to back out of the TWA deal at the 11th hour, and more or less was forced to complete the deal.TWA brought nothing to the table, but a bunch of washed up planes and a washed up hub at a washed up airline.
Oh and the people at MEM say hi. An eerily similar airport who also had only one major airline and not great O&D traffic who DL promised wouldn't dehub.
Jul 30, 2015, 9:12 am
#28
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,120
IMO WN would not really fit into CLT as a large player if AA were to cut CLT. WN doesn't have slot pairs to even offer EWR-ATL. It likely wouldn't be on EWR-CLT. 4 major airports in the east are slot pair oriented and WN controls only so much.
It doesn't service a lot of smaller airports that are short-haul distance to CLT, whose connecting feed is likely the main flow into/out of CLT. WN also doesn't like to run flights that are too short (e.g. CLT-RDU), or run red-eyes. It also already has BWI not too far up, and wants to make FLL also an international gateway.
Last edited by rtalk25; Jul 30, 2015 at 9:21 am
Jul 30, 2015, 3:34 pm
#29
Join Date: May 2009
Location: PHL
Posts: 2,842
This is AA oriented: A possible direction of AA dehubbing CLT doesn't seem to fit with some of the current reductions. PHL-AUS and PHL-SAT is being cut (or seasonalized) from AA, but CLT-AUS/SAT remain year-round. CLT is closer to those Texas cities than PHL is to them, but PHL remains a larger market. You also see routes like CLT-PDX being flown year round but not PHL-PDX not, because of the same issue. PHL being too far out there, but CLT being more central, and hub optimization seems to be benefiting CLT more than PHL.
IMO WN would not really fit into CLT as a large player if AA were to cut CLT. WN doesn't have slot pairs to even offer EWR-ATL. It likely wouldn't be on EWR-CLT. 4 major airports in the east are slot pair oriented and WN controls only so much.
It doesn't service a lot of smaller airports that are short-haul distance to CLT, whose connecting feed is likely the main flow into/out of CLT. WN also doesn't like to run flights that are too short (e.g. CLT-RDU), or run red-eyes. It also already has BWI not too far up, and wants to make FLL also an international gateway.
IMO WN would not really fit into CLT as a large player if AA were to cut CLT. WN doesn't have slot pairs to even offer EWR-ATL. It likely wouldn't be on EWR-CLT. 4 major airports in the east are slot pair oriented and WN controls only so much.
It doesn't service a lot of smaller airports that are short-haul distance to CLT, whose connecting feed is likely the main flow into/out of CLT. WN also doesn't like to run flights that are too short (e.g. CLT-RDU), or run red-eyes. It also already has BWI not too far up, and wants to make FLL also an international gateway.
Also, you have a ton of US loyalists in CLT. US essentially drove WN out of PHL and I'd expect they would try to do the same in CLT.
Aug 4, 2015, 7:35 pm
#30
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,120
Hub optimization really hasn't started, especially since there has been very little fleet optimization. Yes, there are some subtle things as mentioned but that is not much. 200 flights do not need to be slashed from CLT for it to be rationalized, AA could downgrade a bunch of flights to achieve a similar affect. I am not saying this is exactly what will happen but it is a possibility.
Also, you have a ton of US loyalists in CLT. US essentially drove WN out of PHL and I'd expect they would try to do the same in CLT.
Also, you have a ton of US loyalists in CLT. US essentially drove WN out of PHL and I'd expect they would try to do the same in CLT.
US at CLT is a bigger fish in a smaller fish bowl however, so it can drive out competitors on even popular routes like CLT-MCO.
It's not uncommon now for US to charge hub captive fares. A CLT-MCO coach roundtrip on Oct. 6-8 is sellling for $687 on US. There aren't many other choices, except connecting in ATL on DL, or driving. It likely cuts O&D. At PHL, the trick is sometimes to use another airport as an origin airport. e.g. An ABE-CLE-PHL can be a lot cheaper than a PHL-CLE flight. Maybe CLT pax have to originate in GSO and fly GSO-CLT to their destination when the nonstop out of CLT is expensive.
I did visit the Concord airport where Allegiant operates from and avoids the US hub interference. It's in a nice area, but the terminal is a just a hangar. Without a terminal and several gates, it's probably too primitive for Southwest to switch to that airport.
Last edited by rtalk25; Aug 4, 2015 at 7:50 pm