Southwest wants to begin outsourcing its employees
Jun 20, 2012, 7:48 am
#16
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Texas
Programs: WN, AA, SPG, HH
Posts: 20
I'm with holding judgement until...
A) The use of contractors impacts the service I receive.
B) I see where these contractors are actually placed.
It seems to be entirely possible that they only get placed at small stations with limited flights where it is more cost effective to use them rather than full time staff. With all the talk about WN adding Hawaii and International flights, it is possible this change is also related to those potential new stations where they may not need full time staff for only a few flights a day.
A) The use of contractors impacts the service I receive.
B) I see where these contractors are actually placed.
It seems to be entirely possible that they only get placed at small stations with limited flights where it is more cost effective to use them rather than full time staff. With all the talk about WN adding Hawaii and International flights, it is possible this change is also related to those potential new stations where they may not need full time staff for only a few flights a day.
Jun 20, 2012, 8:18 am
#17
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Unfortunately based on reading the most recent approved contract that had already been in effect, this is not the case. Southwest can already run up to 12 flights a day using contractors at smaller stations.
Jun 20, 2012, 8:50 am
#18
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Check into your flight 15 minutes prior to departure somewhere else and see if your bag makes it onto the plane. Come in on a late inbound and see if your connecting flight is holding for YOU anywhere else. The overall workload that we take on and the pace that we do it at is unmatched in the airline industry, but we're happy to do it because we're well taken care of. See if a $9 an hour employee is going to give a flying fart about YOU when he's on flight number 4 for the day. Maybe he'll drive that miss sorted bag across the ramp to meet it's next flight in 2 minutes,.. or maybe he wont. See if that agent at the gate has a smile on his or her face when he/she is worried about problems at home because she has no health insurance.
Jun 20, 2012, 9:51 am
#19
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by smmrfld
If this move will allow WN fares to return to competitiveness, which is now often lacking, it's a smart action.
num1bearsfan Quote:
As an employee, my perspective on things is that of someone who KNOWS... With all due respect, what do you know? How much time have you spent with airline operations at Southwest?
Originally Posted by smmrfld
If this move will allow WN fares to return to competitiveness, which is now often lacking, it's a smart action.
num1bearsfan Quote:
As an employee, my perspective on things is that of someone who KNOWS... With all due respect, what do you know? How much time have you spent with airline operations at Southwest?
Jun 20, 2012, 9:59 am
#20
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,832
I was a contractor ramp agent for an airline back in college. And I've been a contractor for Motorola as well. I can assure you, the pay is less, the benefits suck, the morale is lower, and contract employers get treated like crap by the actual employees of the company.
With that said, I completely understand why WN is headed this way. Pretty much all the big legacies will have much cheaper labor costs because they were all able to trash their union contracts via the bankruptcy reorg process.
Keep in mind that this action by WN is most certainly a negotiating tactic with the ramp agent unions. If they can get these union employees to compromise and negotiate and reach amicable terms, the threat of contract workers will go away. At least until the contract is up for negotiation again...
With that said, I completely understand why WN is headed this way. Pretty much all the big legacies will have much cheaper labor costs because they were all able to trash their union contracts via the bankruptcy reorg process.
Keep in mind that this action by WN is most certainly a negotiating tactic with the ramp agent unions. If they can get these union employees to compromise and negotiate and reach amicable terms, the threat of contract workers will go away. At least until the contract is up for negotiation again...
Jun 20, 2012, 9:59 am
#21
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: USA
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Ground operations is very much customer contact. An operations agent is the one who is at the podium boarding every flight, making gate announcements, and giving individual attention to special needs boarding passengers. But putting that aside, what goes on behind the scenes and under the wing absolutely plays a role in the customer experience. Believe me when I tell you Southwest employees routinely go out of their way to make things happen that other airlines and certainly contractors would never even bother with. Check into your flight 15 minutes prior to departure somewhere else and see if your bag makes it onto the plane. Come in on a late inbound and see if your connecting flight is holding for YOU anywhere else. The overall workload that we take on and the pace that we do it at is unmatched in the airline industry, but we're happy to do it because we're well taken care of. See if a $9 an hour employee is going to give a flying fart about YOU when he's on flight number 4 for the day. Maybe he'll drive that miss sorted bag across the ramp to meet it's next flight in 2 minutes,.. or maybe he wont. See if that agent at the gate has a smile on his or her face when he/she is worried about problems at home because she has no health insurance.
As an employee, my perspective on things is that of someone who KNOWS. It's not a matter of a colored view. I know what we do, and I know the difference. I've worked at other airlines, and along side other airline employees. I see the contractor people and I see what level of work ethic they have. With all due respect, what do you know? How much time have you spent with airline operations at Southwest?
As an employee, my perspective on things is that of someone who KNOWS. It's not a matter of a colored view. I know what we do, and I know the difference. I've worked at other airlines, and along side other airline employees. I see the contractor people and I see what level of work ethic they have. With all due respect, what do you know? How much time have you spent with airline operations at Southwest?
great post, I have personally seen how bad it is at contract levels, it costed UA thousands of $$$, contract employees not charging for extra interline bags because it was easier to throw them on the belt then 5 extra minutes filling out paperwork, not charging for change fees, not repricing tickets, etc
Why because they and myself didn't care because UA didn't care. Slave wages and no flight benefits working UA flights.
Since working for southwest, there was a time where a customers flight arrived late and had 10 minutes to make another flight, I personally went over to the gate and picked the bag and loaded it,the bag beat the passenger to the plane. I guarantee the passenger didn't think the bag was going to arrive.
There was another time after working 16 hours, getting off at 3am in the morning, and taking 1 hour out of my time helping a SW customer who left a laptop on the plane and going back to work at 6am.
Take care of me and Ill take care of our customers
Jun 20, 2012, 10:00 am
#22
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How is this a fundamental change in attitude? 
It seems totally consistent with Southwest's current attitudes. If they could outsource rampers all the way to India and add 1 cent to this quarter's earnings, they'd do it in a heartbeat.
Oh...I'm sorry...you were probably talking about the *old* Southwest, right?
That airline is dead...remember, that airline almost went Chapter 7 bankrupt thanks to years of massive losses caused by the Rapid Rewards program and drink coupons with no expiration dates.
It seems totally consistent with Southwest's current attitudes. If they could outsource rampers all the way to India and add 1 cent to this quarter's earnings, they'd do it in a heartbeat.Oh...I'm sorry...you were probably talking about the *old* Southwest, right?
That airline is dead...remember, that airline almost went Chapter 7 bankrupt thanks to years of massive losses caused by the Rapid Rewards program and drink coupons with no expiration dates.
Jun 20, 2012, 10:06 am
#23
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 228
num1bearsfan,
As a matter of fact, SWA was a leader in US airlines to start outsourcing (heavy maintenance) years & years ago.
Contracted Ground Ops in smaller, geographically-displaced stations can sometimes be much more accountable and effectively managed for insuring performance.
I understand that the Chicago winters are bleak, but you're never gonna get into the Hawaii station, whether it's in-house (you're not senior enough) or contracted.
As a matter of fact, SWA was a leader in US airlines to start outsourcing (heavy maintenance) years & years ago.
Contracted Ground Ops in smaller, geographically-displaced stations can sometimes be much more accountable and effectively managed for insuring performance.
I understand that the Chicago winters are bleak, but you're never gonna get into the Hawaii station, whether it's in-house (you're not senior enough) or contracted.
Jun 20, 2012, 10:21 am
#24
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If a company outsources they can either do it to save money, or to make use of someone more specialized/experienced. If outsourced, why can a company receive similar job duties at a cheaper price?the logical conclusion is they are depriving that person from receiving benefits similar to what a full time company employee equivalent would get.
Jun 21, 2012, 11:48 am
#25
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My question to the union would be: why not work with management to reduce costs, improve efficiency, and allow part-timers where necessary? I remember America West's mini-hub at CMH back in the 90's. America West hired part-timers to work many of the functions, due to the hub's small size, and their employees were very happy (according to my friends there at the time). They employed alot of military and other early retirees.
Jun 21, 2012, 12:08 pm
#26
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,870
Ground operations is very much customer contact. An operations agent is the one who is at the podium boarding every flight, making gate announcements, and giving individual attention to special needs boarding passengers. But putting that aside, what goes on behind the scenes and under the wing absolutely plays a role in the customer experience. Believe me when I tell you Southwest employees routinely go out of their way to make things happen that other airlines and certainly contractors would never even bother with. Check into your flight 15 minutes prior to departure somewhere else and see if your bag makes it onto the plane. Come in on a late inbound and see if your connecting flight is holding for YOU anywhere else. The overall workload that we take on and the pace that we do it at is unmatched in the airline industry, but we're happy to do it because we're well taken care of. See if a $9 an hour employee is going to give a flying fart about YOU when he's on flight number 4 for the day. Maybe he'll drive that miss sorted bag across the ramp to meet it's next flight in 2 minutes,.. or maybe he wont. See if that agent at the gate has a smile on his or her face when he/she is worried about problems at home because she has no health insurance.
As an employee, my perspective on things is that of someone who KNOWS. It's not a matter of a colored view. I know what we do, and I know the difference. I've worked at other airlines, and along side other airline employees. I see the contractor people and I see what level of work ethic they have. With all due respect, what do you know? How much time have you spent with airline operations at Southwest?
As an employee, my perspective on things is that of someone who KNOWS. It's not a matter of a colored view. I know what we do, and I know the difference. I've worked at other airlines, and along side other airline employees. I see the contractor people and I see what level of work ethic they have. With all due respect, what do you know? How much time have you spent with airline operations at Southwest?
Jun 21, 2012, 12:57 pm
#27
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I've had Southwest choose not to hold a plane for me when my inbound was late. I've also had them do it, and I've had United and US Airways both do it too. I assume that decision lies somewhere beyond the ground staff working that aircraft.
I seriously, seriously doubt that I could walk into an airport, 15 minutes prior to departure, and check a bag that makes it onto that flight. Southwest or any other airline. (I'd be lucky to get myself with no checked bags onto the flight!) I think I'd have a *better* shot if I pulled that stunt at some tiny out-of-the-way US Airways Express station working a single 7AM Dash-8 departure, but even then I wouldn't expect it.
Of course none of this has anything to do with labor-market equilibrium rates for ground staff. I've personally worked as a pure contractor (1099), a consultant with external clients (W-2, but located on a client site mostly), and as one with primarily internal clients (W-2, located on employer site). I don't tihnk one structure led me to be a better or worse employee. Clearly the more strategic the role, the more you want it fully in-house. But I don't see how outsourcing ops has to lead to poor ops.
I seriously, seriously doubt that I could walk into an airport, 15 minutes prior to departure, and check a bag that makes it onto that flight. Southwest or any other airline. (I'd be lucky to get myself with no checked bags onto the flight!) I think I'd have a *better* shot if I pulled that stunt at some tiny out-of-the-way US Airways Express station working a single 7AM Dash-8 departure, but even then I wouldn't expect it.
Of course none of this has anything to do with labor-market equilibrium rates for ground staff. I've personally worked as a pure contractor (1099), a consultant with external clients (W-2, but located on a client site mostly), and as one with primarily internal clients (W-2, located on employer site). I don't tihnk one structure led me to be a better or worse employee. Clearly the more strategic the role, the more you want it fully in-house. But I don't see how outsourcing ops has to lead to poor ops.
Jun 21, 2012, 7:46 pm
#28
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I did it 13 minutes before departure once about 8 years ago, before the TSA was screening bags.
Jun 21, 2012, 8:37 pm
#29
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What a tempest in a teapot. Southwest has outsourced much of its maintenance for decades, so outsourcing is nothing new at WN.
From the 2011 10-K:
http://southwest.investorroom.com/do...ual+Report.PDF
Let's review: Southwest already outsources all of its engine and major component overhaul along with nearly all of its heavy airframe overhaul. WN planes can be found alongside jetBlue planes at Aeroman in El Salvador, being overhauled by experienced mechanics making about $5/hour, assisted by a small army of non-licensed helpers making about $2/hr.
http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/thir...oeing-a/nDNwr/
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/...intanence.html
Not all of WN's planes are overhauled in El Salvador; others are overhauled at nonunion MROs here in the US.
And we're supposed to care that WN is looking to outsource baggage handlers and lav truck drivers?
From the 2011 10-K:
The Company performs substantially all line maintenance on its aircraft and provides ground support services at most of the airports it serves. However, the Company has arrangements with certain aircraft maintenance firms for major component inspections and repairs for its airframes and engines, which comprise the majority of the Company’s annual aircraft maintenance costs.
Aircraft and engine maintenance
The cost of scheduled inspections and repairs and routine maintenance costs for all aircraft and engines are charged to Maintenance materials and repairs expense as incurred. The Company has “power-by-the-hour” agreements related to its Boeing 737-700 engines and AirTran’s Boeing 717-200 engines with external service providers. Under these agreements, which the Company has determined effectively transfer the risk associated with the maintenance on such engines to the counterparty, expense is recorded commensurate with each hour flown on an engine. The Company modified its engine maintenance contract for its Classic fleet (737-300/500s) during fourth quarter 2011 and although payments made under this contract are made under a “power-by-the-hour” basis, the risk-transfer concept under this agreement is no longer met, and the Company now records expense on a time and materials basis when an engine repair event takes place.
The cost of scheduled inspections and repairs and routine maintenance costs for all aircraft and engines are charged to Maintenance materials and repairs expense as incurred. The Company has “power-by-the-hour” agreements related to its Boeing 737-700 engines and AirTran’s Boeing 717-200 engines with external service providers. Under these agreements, which the Company has determined effectively transfer the risk associated with the maintenance on such engines to the counterparty, expense is recorded commensurate with each hour flown on an engine. The Company modified its engine maintenance contract for its Classic fleet (737-300/500s) during fourth quarter 2011 and although payments made under this contract are made under a “power-by-the-hour” basis, the risk-transfer concept under this agreement is no longer met, and the Company now records expense on a time and materials basis when an engine repair event takes place.
Let's review: Southwest already outsources all of its engine and major component overhaul along with nearly all of its heavy airframe overhaul. WN planes can be found alongside jetBlue planes at Aeroman in El Salvador, being overhauled by experienced mechanics making about $5/hour, assisted by a small army of non-licensed helpers making about $2/hr.
http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/thir...oeing-a/nDNwr/
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/...intanence.html
Not all of WN's planes are overhauled in El Salvador; others are overhauled at nonunion MROs here in the US.
And we're supposed to care that WN is looking to outsource baggage handlers and lav truck drivers?
Jun 26, 2012, 11:43 am
#30
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Has some outsourcing of baggage agents already taken place? I flew out of LIT recently, and the curbside people in the SWA area were all wearing black polo shirts with a logo which seemed to be identical to the people shuttling wheelchair passengers back and forth inside the terminal for all airlines -- in other words, employees of the airport and not the airline. Depending on the time of day, this curbside baggage position may be staffed by either SWA or airport personnel. My experience has been that SWA employees are more friendly, work through the lines of waiting passengers MUCH faster, and generally do a better job of taking car of business. These guys, the first contact at the airport between passenger and airline, can either start the trip off on a positive note or help to put a chip on the passenger's shoulder. A well managed, passenger service oriented company would surely want their own employees in that critical first contact position. It is unfortunate if SWA is no longer that company.